Popular Post Sketchy Posted March 2, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted March 2, 2018 (edited) Alex. The previous econ update has broken the economy. A list of negative side effects of this update: Raw and refined resources are at an all time high in price, whilst commerce value has been reduced dramatically. This means people have less money to purchase refined resources which are now at a drastically higher value, no ability to self sustain with them at all, and as a result it takes a considerably longer period of time to amass them in order to do anything. Supermarkets, and by extension, the ITC project, are literally useless for anyone but the people with the highest of infrastructure builds, as they pay out a pittance in value vs most resources. Prices of refined resources will continue to rise as the overall supply continues to drop, as it requires you to be much larger, and takes you much longer, to produce the same amount of resources under the older system. This will either stagnate war in the game, or create a serious (like Venezuela level) resource shortage. Smaller nations are completely stagnated and are unable to compete with larger nations who have gotten over the lower tier stagnation area. It requires a much higher base level of infrastructure to sustain the same profits one could in the older system, but the costs are not reduced (100 infra reduction cost is a pittance and was a stupid bandaid fix, as was the daily login bonus). It requires a much larger upfront investment in order to even be profitable. It is essentially impossible to self sustain any sort of growth now at all without aid. Additionally, alliances no longer have the incentive to invest heavily in noobs either, as there is a investment hurdle that needs to be overcome before a nation is profitable, and now alliances have less money overall to deal with, and are less likely to invest in noobs heavily as they are a risky investment in general. The reasons why this is happening: You nerfed the shit out of commerce, reducing the overall purchasing power of nations, forced it to compete with refined resources by disallowing commerce AND resources in a sustainable nation build, forced those to compete with other necessary resources like food/uranium. All the while increasing the base amount of slots simply to sustain a single focused build, AND you did not reduce the slots of military to offset this, severely punishing higher military build alliances, and completely killing any profitability during war at all for any nations that don't have huge swaths of infrastructure, which usually get rekt in war. You increased the pollution aspect of natively producing refined resources to such a degree as to make it literally impossible to max produce even 1 refined resources without taking a larger commerce hit, and increased the slot usage of raws so much, making it impossible for smaller nations to even fit the neccessary slots. This forced people to rely heavier on the even-increasing market with the reduced commerce profit. You increased the slot usage of commerce, reducing the individual value of each commerce improvement. Since the profit of commerce improvements is fixed relative only to your infrastructure level basically, you gutted the value of the smaller improvements like supermarkets relative to literally some of the worst profiting resources for the vast majority of infra builds. How to fix this issue: Remove the update and return it to how it was previously. Return it to the original slots, pollution values, upkeep values, and infrastructure costs. Put aside your pride and instead of resorting to bandaid after the fact fixes to the issue, return to the previous system. The economy had minor balance issues under the previous system, which I documented and pointed out in the hopes you would increase the demand for resources, but the direction you took it has made things worse. I know you said you introduced the update in order to stop people from producing multiple resource types, but this was never an actual balance issue. Producing multiple refined resources in the previous system was done AT A LOSS in income, and the "solution" provided was a huge overshot to an arbitrary problem that did not need fixing. I've been considering whether I should even bother posting this for awhile, since you were pretty adamant in not rolling back the changes at the time (even going so far as to placate the community with other often requested updates), but honestly if you don't step in and resolve this you are going to continue to stagnate the game and the economy is only going to get worse. Doing this will both help new players who are struggling under the current econ system, and make war more feasible for the average alliance on a more regular basis than once per year. Edited March 2, 2018 by Sketchy 125 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Dio Brando Posted March 2, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted March 2, 2018 (edited) Having just had an hour long voice chat about this, it is sufficient to say that I'm in agreement with all of the above. Edited March 2, 2018 by Dio Brando 41 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Lilac Veritas Posted March 2, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted March 2, 2018 Resource prices are high, so people decide to produce for themselves and sell to take advantage of the market Due to the slot requirements and the profit per slot, supermarkets arent worth it so they get cut, leaving just 1 bank giving a boost over 100% commerce to 105%. This does not justify the use of a project slot so the bank is cut and the ITC is scrapped for further increases in production. You go to sell but people only buy because they must AND any rational consumer has done what you have done, ie the overall cashflow or liquidity has beenreduced as there's more asset value in resources, but its hard to exchange cause buying steel at 5k makes you feel dirty when you remember how it used to be. 22 Quote As you sow, so shall you reap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Shiho Nishizumi Posted March 2, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted March 2, 2018 In hindsight, too many nerfs happened at the same time. The pollution ones in particular are nonsensical. They already had to pay more upkeep simply because you needing more industries to produce as much as you did; why punish whatever commerce that person has left that way? In his overzealousness to reduce the output of whales, he fricked up everybody else in the process. 17 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Roquentin Posted March 2, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted March 2, 2018 I agree with this. I don't know if a rollback would happen but the problems are real. The cut in raw production has been a huge issue. 27 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post NastyGamer Posted March 2, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted March 2, 2018 (edited) Small nations have been hit hard. The objectives does give them a head start, but they are basically reliant on grants, that are taxed out of big nations by alliances. I mean yes, that's what alliances are for.. helping each other. But the economy is really screwed. And this might be one of the reasons people fear to go to war.. they might become vulnerable for months after the war ends.. as they would take time to build up. Edited March 2, 2018 by WarGamer 22 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Lorhill Posted March 2, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted March 2, 2018 I completely agree something needs to change and a rollback would help get things settled so you and the players of PnW can come up with ideas to fix the one or two problems of that original Econ era. 14 Quote "Even in times of loneliness if you have the spirits you are never entirely alone" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalev60 Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 While as whale I disagree than all those "negatives" are negatives and low-tier nations should abandon all hope in low-tiers profiting from resource production or warring and just grow the hell up, I can agree to that diagnosis is true. Even if nothing else gets changed nerfing the pollution from production and mines would be nice. 1 18 Quote Charlie Chaplin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Sketchy Posted March 2, 2018 Author Popular Post Share Posted March 2, 2018 3 minutes ago, kalev60 said: While as whale I disagree than all those "negatives" are negatives and low-tier nations should abandon all hope in low-tiers profiting from resource production or warring and just grow the hell up, I can agree to that diagnosis is true. Even if nothing else gets changed nerfing the pollution from production and mines would be nice. That would be a bandaid fix. We shouldn't be settling for less. 12 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seraphim Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 I'm sure Alex has his reasons to stay put with the existing update. For one, PnW is growing even without investment into ads unlike the past. Secondly, I think Alex feels loosening up Econ mode could just make top 2-3 Alliances simply swell faster and continue to create a stagnant ice peak that continues to chill high up and not flow down. Let's face it, there's hardly any alliance wars happening. The Alliances that do go to war are the lower tier Alliances. What Alex needs to do is bring some vigour and vibrance to the game to promote some long awaited action among the silent ice cold Alliances. Then... Loosen up on the Economy mode, which more active and veteran players in PnW are yearning so much for. 23 minutes ago, WarGamer said: Small nations have been hit hard. The objectives does give them a head start, but they are basically reliant on grants, that are taxed out of big nations by alliances. I mean yes, that's what alliances are for.. helping each other. But the economy is really screwed. And this might be one of the reasons people fear to go to war.. they might become vulnerable for months after the war ends.. as they would take time to build up. War, you seriously can't believe the economy or market prices are konked just cus of some update? The larger nations, who can churn out large production also has part to blame. Plus these rabid prices are ridiculous when there's wars happening or smell of some disputes catching fire. And BTW, smaller much younger nations will always depend on help irrespective of updates interfering. That's what Alliances are for. Unfortunately, gluttony knows no boundaries and top level alliances expect quick results.. Can't blame Alex for that. 3 45 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Buorhann Posted March 2, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted March 2, 2018 @Seraphim - His focus should remain on the game, not the alliances. The player base should handle the politics behind alliance growth and whatnot. If the Top 3 Alliances swell from it, then that's our fault. 27 1 Quote Warrior of Dio https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfPCFQfOnLg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Auctor Posted March 2, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted March 2, 2018 I would boldly suggest that additional people join the game not because it has a broken econ mechanic, but in spite of it. You're implying a causation that is false. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Reagan Posted March 2, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted March 2, 2018 One of my biggest issues with this game (and contributed to my loss of interest) was that the mechanics were constantly changing. Used to put a lot of effort into creating guides, teaching others how to play, and so on. It was a lot of work and I didn’t mind but then things would keep changing. Time for revisions, relearn what you’ve learned, throw out the play book...here we go again. To Alex’s credit, his commitment to his game and constantly listening to the community and trying to improve it should be commended. I also understand that with so many pieces that need to work together, it’s very difficult to achieve balance in a game like this. You also will never satisfy everyone’s expectations of how they think it should be. Having said that, this game has been around since late 2013. At some point, you have to reach a point you can live with that makes the game worth playing and enjoyable for the majority. Minor tweaks and refinements should be encouraged, but the focus should shift to enhancements, not reworking the core gameplay. I hope the day comes when it can get there. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Redarmy Posted March 2, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted March 2, 2018 (edited) Seriously it's time to fix the eco. It's broken. I have legitimately thought about selling my ITC bc of that 114% bs, it triggers my OCD. Any time a new player ask why you can't achieve 115% with wasting a slot, I have say Alex reasons. Edited March 2, 2018 by Redarmy 15 1 Quote "Though it starts with a fist it must end with your mind." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Dio Brando Posted March 2, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted March 2, 2018 27 minutes ago, Seraphim said: (1) I'm sure Alex has his reasons to stay put with the existing update. For one, PnW is growing even without investment into ads unlike the past. (2) Secondly, I think Alex feels loosening up Econ mode could just make top 2-3 Alliances simply swell faster and continue to create a stagnant ice peak that continues to chill high up and not flow down. (3) Let's face it, there's hardly any alliance wars happening. The Alliances that do go to war are the lower tier Alliances. (4) What Alex needs to do is bring some vigour and vibrance to the game to promote some long awaited action among the silent ice cold Alliances. Then... Loosen up on the Economy mode, which more active and veteran players in PnW are yearning so much for. War, you seriously can't believe the economy or market prices (5) are konked just cus of some update? The larger nations, (6)who can churn out large production also has part to blame. Plus these (7) rabid prices are ridiculous when there's wars happening or smell of some disputes catching fire. And BTW, (8) smaller much younger nations will always depend on help irrespective of updates interfering. That's what Alliances are for. Unfortunately, gluttony knows no boundaries and top level alliances expect quick results.. (9) Can't blame Alex for that. (1): Yeah, but his reasons are fricking retarded. Second... where did Sketchy mention growth rate of the playerbase? (2): You've missed the point. It isn't the top 2-3 alliances losing out, it's the new guys. Go learn the mechanics first. (3): And why do you believe that is so? There is a common assumption that is made (which I believe is perfectly rational to make). The lowering of costs attached with wars will lead to more wars. So... sit down, and think about what you're saying. (4): Sure... I'll see that "vigour and vibrance" when steel prices hit $10k when war-time hits. (5): sigh. That is exactly what happened. (6): ...you know that output and production was nerfed heavily right? My, and a whole hella other people's issue with the update was that it tweaked supply as opposed to demand. (7): Yeah? Then change this shit. (8): So your justification for new nations struggling is to make it harder for them to get by? Cool beans. (9): I blame Alex. There. 13 minutes ago, Reagan said: One of my biggest issues with this game (and contributed to my loss of interest) was that the mechanics were constantly changing. Used to put a lot of effort into creating guides, teaching others how to play, and so on. It was a lot of work and I didn’t mind but then things would keep changing. Time for revisions, relearn what you’ve learned, throw out the play book...here we go again. (1) To Alex’s credit, his commitment to his game and constantly listening to the community and trying to improve it should be commended. I also understand that with so many pieces that need to work together, it’s very difficult to achieve balance in a game like this. You also will never satisfy everyone’s expectations of how they think it should be. Having said that, this game has been around since late 2013. At some point, you have to reach a point you can live with that makes the game worth playing and enjoyable for the majority. Minor tweaks and refinements should be encouraged, but the focus should shift to enhancements, not reworking the core gameplay. I hope the day comes when it can get there. Lol. You uh, been reading this thread? 12 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hydraik Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 (edited) I don't think that a complete rollback of the system at this point is reasonable nor would it fix the issues. The issue with the current system is raws are worthless with the exception of uranium with a uep but even they can be bad at times. If raws are worthless then the manufactured prices skyrocket because of a lack of supply. That happens until an equilibrium is met. Lately that seems to put steel at 5kppu. 5kppu is a horrible price for steel because it makes tanks and ships next to impossible to build for war(though I think the fortify system is a bigger cause to lack of war). That said sheepy just needs to make raws more desirable. Takeout the stupid pollution requirements he set on them. Let's face it in a first world country mining for raw materials hardly produce pollution beyond gasoline usage in vehicles. It's the factories that refine the material that produce decent amounts of pollution. See if that does the trick and makes the market stable if it doesn't then more might need to be done, but I don't think we need anything as drastic as a rollback. Prolly the biggest problem with the current economic setup is that it makes pirating the most profitable tactic. So screw the 90% of players that aren't pirates! Edited March 2, 2018 by hydraik 1 12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seraphim Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 8 minutes ago, Dio Brando said: (1): Yeah, but his reasons are fricking retarded. Second... where did Sketchy mention growth rate of the playerbase? (2): You've missed the point. It isn't the top 2-3 alliances losing out, it's the new guys. Go learn the mechanics first. (3): And why do you believe that is so? There is a common assumption that is made (which I believe is perfectly rational to make). The lowering of costs attached with wars will lead to more wars. So... sit down, and think about what you're saying. (4): Sure... I'll see that "vigour and vibrance" when steel prices hit $10k when war-time hits. (5): sigh. That is exactly what happened. (6): ...you know that output and production was nerfed heavily right? My, and a whole hella other people's issue with the update was that it tweaked supply as opposed to demand. (7): Yeah? Then change this shit. (8): So your justification for new nations struggling is to make it harder for them to get by? Cool beans. (9): I blame Alex. There. Lol. You uh, been reading this thread? You seem to be confused. If you didn't understand what I said or don't agree, then get in line and downvote. Simple as that. 2 36 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Shiho Nishizumi Posted March 2, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted March 2, 2018 'I can't defend my shoddy attempt at an argument when someone tears it down, so I just dismiss it.' 23 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post LordStrum Posted March 2, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted March 2, 2018 2 minutes ago, Seraphim said: You seem to be confused. If you didn't understand what I said or don't agree, then get in line and downvote. Simple as that. "If you don't agree, don't counter with valid arguments so I don't feel like an idiot." 21 1 Quote On 3/16/2016 at 9:54 PM, Lykos said: Our next move is obviously rolling LordStrum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hydraik Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 5 minutes ago, Shiho Nishizumi said: 'I can't defend my shoddy attempt at an argument when someone tears it down, so I just dismiss it.' The irony of almost everyone who's upvoted this has seem to done just that. Gj on the salt thread guys. 1 15 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shlappa Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apeman Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 Great game sheepy. Keep it up 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seraphim Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 31 minutes ago, LordStrum said: "If you don't agree, don't counter with valid arguments so I don't feel like an idiot." Don't get me wrong like the Brando guy. Im not typing to counter anyone at the forum. As a player of PnW, I view this forum and comment my view. Some people get over exaggerated and question me like I should agree with someone elses views. I believe I have a right to my exercise my own views. 4 17 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Dio Brando Posted March 2, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted March 2, 2018 3 minutes ago, Seraphim said: Don't get me wrong like the Brando guy. Im not typing to counter anyone at the forum. As a player of PnW, I view this forum and comment my view. Some people get over exaggerated and question me like I should agree with someone elses views. I believe I have a right to my exercise my own views. You are free to do so. You are also open to getting called out on what you post. 9 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senry Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 And others tell you why they think you're wrong. Welcome to literally life. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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