BK recognition of hostilities

[Holton]

Help me out here. What is risky about allying NPO and having about 250 nations around the same NS range, exactly?

 

Hey man give them credit, it's risky to ever do anything of note!

[Amaryllis]

I am unable to get it if your intentions were not evil then for what you made a bloc ?? just to hangout with new friends?? I think one discord channel would have better if that's the case. Like as I mentioned earlier I personally don't think it's wrong to shake things up but then why you guys kept those treaties with us ?? the answer is simple you knew that one day or another you are going to start a war against us and will simply use those treaties as shields. like you guys hit rose (ally of your ally) but mensa can't counter you coz you kept that treaty so I think it is only safe to say that your intentions were to use those treaties to make yourself safe and to roll your allies.

As I said before BK could have done things better when this whole thing got started better (again don't fire me boss!). Maybe one of those things could have been cancelling the treaties. Definitely would have made this war a lot less messy and maybe would have calmed some tensions

 

But from what DvD and Curu said, the intent of keeping the treaties was to show we had no intention of hitting you guys (think about it if you guys were to hit an ally of ours we wouldn't have been able counter so this put BK in the same position as you guys). It's one of those situations where one did something to show you're sincere in one thing (show no ill intent) but resulted in well this.

[Infice]

Help me out here. What is risky about allying NPO and having about 250 nations around the same NS range, exactly?

 

We traded being dominant as a sphere in nearly all tiers to being dominant in only the mid tier in the name of "shaking things up"

 

I don't like how we handled things with regards to Mensa and t$. I do believe we had missteps in handling relations and communications with them but ultimately, we accept that things can go wrong / blow out of proportions when you attempt to do something different from the status quo.

[Spaceman Thrax]

We traded being dominant as a sphere in nearly all tiers to being dominant in only the mid tier in the name of "shaking things up"

 

I get your point. But at least for me, if you're going to do something to shake things up, I don't see the sense in a half measure. Having a dominant X tier isn't conducive to a terribly dynamic environment: I'd point to the treaty-tying staredown period after IQ was formed as proof of this.

 

Or put another way... you traded security for security, in the name of shaking things up.

 

Edit: I appreciate the tone of your two posts though. The black and white BSing is very tiring. You certainly did something to shake things up... if anything my disappointment comes from thinking you capable of more.

Edited April 17, 2017 by Spaceman Thrax

[Dalinar]

Would you mind enlightening us again what those ideas were? Your generic statements of having 'ideas' are not at all convincing, and act as a poor rebuttal to Curu's points.

 

I have no idea what the proposals were, but to imply that OO leaders (BK and CS in this case) are too scared to take and risks is laughable. The actions that both alliance took were so risky that it did indeed brought out another world war. In this case, it is more evident that TKR was the one who refused to take any risk that threatens its position.

Normally I don't log dump, but you're asking for evidence and this is the only evidence I have. Note: I'm semi-active and out for good in a few months anyway. Here's some logs for better or worse.

 

 

Logs that Curu alluded to on the 4th:

 

 

Curufinwe - 01/04/2017

We seem to be running out of targets(edited)

infinite_citadel - 01/04/2017

we're in a weird spot

Curufinwe - 01/04/2017

Indeed

We've basically decimated all the opposition at this point

I didn't realize how far ahead we were until someone pointed out on the OWF that our side has more cities than the rest of the game combined

infinite_citadel - 01/04/2017

yeah

the problem is

you guys and us

kept recruiting and growing our guys

when literally nobody else was recruiting well

you guys have 150 members, we have 120 members - 3 wars ago I don't know if either of us were above 100 heh

idk

Syndisphere won the game at this point

Curufinwe - 01/04/2017

Pretty much

I mean Mensa is talking about running intra AA war games just for something to do :stuck_out_tongue:

Kinda says it all :stuck_out_tongue:

infinite_citadel - 01/04/2017

yeah, that's silly imo

but that being said, what's the most fun thing we could do to change?

I think a straight up OO-tS/Mensa split would just result in the same issue 6 months down the road

Curufinwe - 01/04/2017

Entirely possible

I don't have any beef with tS, but I get the argument that our sphere has become OP

infinite_citadel - 01/04/2017

yeah

Curufinwe - 01/04/2017

I mean at this point we could probably war the rest of the world without undue difficulty

infinite_citadel - 01/04/2017

this is hands down the best sphere I've been a part of

very little drama

no obvious points of contention (expect maybe Rose being tied to Mensa, and they're trying to change it seems)

Curufinwe - 01/04/2017

Nope - we all get along pretty well

So we'd be splitting for the sake of splitting

infinite_citadel - 01/04/2017

yep

which is a bad reason to split heh

Curufinwe - 01/04/2017

I mean, I could start being a complete douche to start some drama

But it would probably reflect poorly on my leadership if I got BK rolled :stuck_out_tongue:

infinite_citadel - 01/04/2017

yeah haha

Curufinwe - 01/04/2017

So yeah, I dunno either

infinite_citadel - 01/04/2017

we could do a 3/4 way split

if we are going to do a split

TKR/BK/tS/Mensa

granted I think all 4 would have to be supportive of it heh

Curufinwe - 01/04/2017

You're trying to break up with us, IC?

I thought things were going so well

infinite_citadel - 01/04/2017

:stuck_out_tongue:

Curufinwe - 01/04/2017

We only cheated on you once

And BK was drunk

It meant nothing

infinite_citadel - 01/04/2017

THAT'S WHAT THEY ALL SAY

Curufinwe - 01/04/2017

I MEAN IT, DAMMIT

TKR IS OUR TRUE LOVE

MENSA SEDUCED US WHEN WE WERE IN A VULNERABLE PLACE

infinite_citadel - 01/04/2017

:broken_heart:

FIRST UPN, THEN MENSA

IDK HOW I CAN TRUST YOU GUYS AGAIN

AND DON'T GET ME STARTED ON THAT POLARIS !@#$

Curufinwe - 01/04/2017

WE WERE ON A BREAK

POLARIS DOESN'T COUNT

infinite_citadel - 01/04/2017

lol

Note: TKR/BK/tS/Mensa granted I think all 4 would have to be supportive of it heh <-- My preferred route was open and minus any cloak and dagger moves (sue me). Heard no serious response to the suggestion, so I assumed that BK wasn't supportive.

 

Also mentioned it again on 2/7 to Bezzers/BoC:

 

infinite_citadel - 02/07/2017

Yeah everything's good, just haven't been as active on the FA front

We're in that weird position where we've essentially won the game heh

Bezzers - 02/07/2017

Well then that kinda makes it easier for me to discuss something with you

I wanted to know your stance on possibly breaking from t$ and syndisphere to make another sphere with OO allies

I've been sat on it for a while just wanted to know your opinion

infinite_citadel - 02/07/2017

Not sure if we'd be down, it'd be splitting for the sake of splitting/hard to throw away half of our relationships and choose the other half over them for no reason etc

If there's a split, a three way would be more interesting idk

Bezzers - 02/07/2017

Well, I just feel like we've got nowhere to go

If we were to split pretty evenly with the syndisphere it'd make the whole game a lot more interesting

But then yeah, it would lose OO a few allies

infinite_citadel - 02/07/2017

BK/TKR/TS going three different ways would make it the most interesting imo

Bezzers - 02/07/2017

But OO :disappointed:

infinite_citadel - 02/07/2017

Granted with no real animosity I'm not sure how wars would be etc

Bezzers - 02/07/2017

Also NPO/UPN sphere would be in with a chance of beating the crap out of us

infinite_citadel - 02/07/2017

Would they?

Iirc TKR is nearly double NPO's score

And they're the largest

Bezzers - 02/07/2017

If we split into 3 and they all banded together

infinite_citadel - 02/07/2017

Oh

Yeah in that case it's more interesting

Bezzers - 02/07/2017

But that's beside the point, where would poor old BoC go if OO split :disappointed:

infinite_citadel - 02/07/2017

Which is better imo

Bezzers - 02/07/2017

I reckoned would to try and reclaim dominance

* reckon they

infinite_citadel - 02/07/2017

That's more or less where TKR is if our allies are split at all - we're in OO sure, but I do view all of our allies on the same level

Bezzers - 02/07/2017

Fair enough

So would you be more interested in a 3 way split, or a 2 way split?

infinite_citadel - 02/07/2017

3 way

Bezzers - 02/07/2017

I will consider this, Ty :stuck_out_tongue:

 

Me saying I view our allies on the same level is apparently a controversial view point. I understand the view point of bloc > all else (even if OO had no supremacy clause), but as long as Syndisphere was a thing and TKR was at/near the center, I believed that we shouldn't play favorites and factored in the interests of our allies/periphery (hell our skirmish with RW/Arrgh wouldn't have happened last summer if it wasn't for them messing with BoC/CS protectorates). 

 

 

Next thing I heard from BoC was their treaty with WU out of the blue on 2/22 (which is used as a point of TKR stifling cross sphere treaties, !@#$ me for wanting to understand the logic behind a move from an ally), note they signed the treaty on 2/23.

 

Bezzers - 02/22/2017

BoC is likely going to be signing an MDP (non chaining) with western union at some point in the future, as a heads up. Also, in March we're potentially gonna lose a fair bit of score, but don't get confused when it happens, we're dropping military reqs down by 20% for a month, to help growth. Will be back up in April, or basically the second I hear any kind of war scare xD

infinite_citadel - 02/22/2017

Why WU?

Bezzers - 02/22/2017

They have lots of potential, we're friends with their gov and we share a lot of political ideas within orbis

infinite_citadel - 02/22/2017

like what? I'm wary of WU more than the rest of the TEst splinters, so I'm just curious :stuck_out_tongue:

February 23, 2017

Bezzers - 02/23/2017

We're friends with the gov, hidude has a lot of ideals that line up to mine, such as not forcing allies into treatying those you want them to etc and I can see them being pretty solid.

infinite_citadel - 02/23/2017

I can't remember an alliance forcing any of their allies to treaty someone - any examples?

Curufinwe - 02/23/2017

Well we insisted Sparta drop it's Paragon ties before we would sign them

So I suppose that might count

It was more a matter of us not wanting to ally them if they had major conflicts rather than an ultimatum though

So I'm not sure 'forced' would be the right word

infinite_citadel - 02/23/2017

Asking not to sign is different imo

February 24, 2017

Bezzers - 02/24/2017

I phrased it badly

Pretty much

We've signed this now, and I'm not going back on it until they show they don't care or  do something counter productive to us or OO in general. Regardless of this treaty, OO is still my number one priority when it comes to our allies, and I'll drop anyone who actively threatens to disrupt the bloc

 

bonus logs of me venting to curu about it (since I'm sure these would be counter dropped anyway)

 

infinite_citadel - 02/23/2017

How do you feel about this WU treaty?

Curufinwe - 02/23/2017

Well I mean I tried to talk Bezzers out of it, using the same arguments I used in the vault channel

But he was pretty dead set

I mean, I wouldn't have signed Hidude, but I'm not going to tell BoC how to run its FA either

Hopefully my concerns are unfounded about Sparta 2.0 

infinite_citadel - 02/23/2017

He's giving terrible arguments for signing it

I'm kind of tired of covering for terrible BoC FA

Curufinwe - 02/23/2017

Well Guardian was planning on signing them too last I heard

And half the game is protecting them

So it's not like it's just BoC

February 24, 2017

Curufinwe - 02/24/2017

Also, I'm a little perplexed tbh - you didn't seem overly concerned when Guardian wanted to sign WU:(edited)

I echo pretty much everyone's concerns so far (re: Sparta flipping sides a lot/throwing their weight around while in TEst etc). I trust your judgement on a MDP/ODP though (would the MDP be non-chaining?)

Is there a real difference between having one indirect tie and having two?

infinite_citadel - 02/24/2017

I trust Guardian's judgement more than BoC - also Guardian asked for opinions/concerns

BoC went "we're doing this"

TLF, Storm Division, Paying Arrgh in the middle of a war with them, wanting to randomly hit wtf/Valkyrie for no reason

This more or less adds up heh

Curufinwe - 02/24/2017

I think TLF was CS actually  (edited)

Also wasn't SD CS too?  Or did BoC ally them briefly or something?  I only remember them being a thing for a few minutes

Curufinwe - 02/24/2017

But I mean in a lengthy discussion with Kayser last night he seemed to be more concerned with the threat WU posed than the process that went into signing them

Whereas if you're cool with Guardian doing the exact same thing provided they ask around first (although if they do up signing a nMDP the result is literally the exact same), you seem more concerned with the latter

Since the outcome in either case is an indirect tie with WU(edited)

infinite_citadel - 02/24/2017

Kayser probably isn't cool with Guardian either, he doesn't lead TKR though 

Curufinwe - 02/24/2017

Didn't claim he did 

And he didn't know about Guardian - I guess you never had him added to the vault channel

But I'm trying to understand the crux of the issue here

Since if Guardian seeking advice but then doing the same thing as BoC ended up doing   is cool it seems like this is more about style than substance, at least as far as WU is concerned

Since Sparta 2.0 can't be that huge of a risk based on your reaction less than a week ago

infinite_citadel - 02/24/2017

It's more the pattern of poor moves

and SD/TLF were both BoC and CS (it's why I didn't want CS in OO)

Curufinwe - 02/24/2017

I recall

Curufinwe - 02/24/2017

I also recall that I did want CS in OO since I felt their unwavering loyalty outweighed the occasional lulzy FA decision

But that's a difference in emphasis I suppose

 

Also since Kastor keeps posting that we blocked Ron (I guess you could argue us voicing displeasure is vetoing a treaty, but that's all there is from this one - removed the other person and just putting in my responses, so you'll have to infer the questions):

 

 

 

infinite_citadel - 02/28/2017

I like the chola

But I cannot trust Lordaeron

And really dislike them

I've heard rumors of Kastor working in back channels to take down TKR

So yeah, I can't really get behind that bloc

 

infinite_citadel - 02/28/2017

Honestly I don't know

I'd say there's very little chance we end up on the same side as lordaeron in the next conflict, so you guys would be put in a terrible position

 

infinite_citadel - 03/01/2017

I'd say Lordaeron is the most disliked alliance within TKR general membership and gov

and tbh with the amount of times he's tried to poach various members, we'd have a CB on them if we wanted one

 

 

Soon after we caught wind of the NPO treaty, figured they were trying to go forward with a sphere split behind our backs and the rest of syndisphere and began to respond accordingly. 

 

Bonus notes: How I envisioned a 3 way split occurring when I first pitched it to Curu back at the turn of the year, obviously some treaties/positions were leaps but it was something to work towards (Note that TKR was by and far the smallest of the three spheres that would've formed, only way I figured it would work) - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10ZAjjjTh-Ea_kuDU4vsqZQD9hAhg6J7idoFJIsg3GZE/edit?usp=sharing(http://i.imgur.com/2pn2ft6.png <-- proof of the last edit).

 

So yeah, I mentioned a 3 way split to OO leaders on two separate occasions and it was not seriously considered. I viewed all our allies equally, but that didn't mean I didn't give a shit about BoC/CS/BK - we owed our loyalty to those that have burned for us (you guys included). 

 

 

I know I should call more, but things have just been busy lately. I swear you're still my favorite snek.

 

Well that doesn't seem to to be in accordance with the conversation (and the logs) I recently reread, but I can't speak to what IC may or may not have said to Bezzers. And I'm not painting you as complacent and uncompromising - I'm simply using the evidence provided by your past actions to demonstrate that TKR repeatedly opposed​ substantive change. I'm sorry if that doesn't match with your current argument that you represent a progressive and evolutionary force in Orbesian politics, but if you were sincerely interested in seeing some sort of dramatic shift in FA you certainly had an odd way of going about it. Generally dramatically altering the status quo involves doing more than having one vague conversation (that I'm aware of) and then never mentioning anything again until you're publicly called out for it 4 months later. But hey, you guys had an idea that you perhaps would have eventually given serious consideration to maybe actually pursuing, so I suppose that's a start.

 

I could've pushed it sure, but it didn't seem like either of you two seriously considered it so I saw no point in pushing it (Also ran into a lack of time to spend on PnW FA, hence why Lordship is now King and I'm just an adviser  ). 

 

Edit: Formatting

Edited April 17, 2017 by Hoid

[Infice]

I get your point. But at least for me, if you're going to do something to shake things up, I don't see the sense in a half measure. Having a dominant X tier isn't conducive to a terribly dynamic environment: I'd point to the treaty-tying staredown period after IQ was formed as proof of this.

 

Or put another way... you traded security for security, in the name of shaking things up.

 

Edit: I appreciate the tone of your two posts though. The black and white BSing is very tiring. You certainly did something to shake things up... if anything my disappointment comes from thinking you capable of more.

 

I think if we really wanted to start another World War, we would probably have looked into cancelling some treaties to prevent another dilemma of being two-sided again (t$/UPN). It was unfortunate that things turned out the way it has. The general consensus was to let things settle after the break up and possibly econ up to more upper tier. The escalation of tensions happened rather quickly in my opinion. 

[Spaceman Thrax]

I think if we really wanted to start another World War, we would probably have looked into cancelling some treaties to prevent another dilemma of being two-sided again (t$/UPN). It was unfortunate that things turned out the way it has. The general consensus was to let things settle after the break up and possibly econ up to more upper tier. The escalation of tensions happened rather quickly in my opinion. 

 

Imo? And this is pure spitballing, so take it for what it is: Take NPO, Zodiac, or BK out of Inquisition, and put Rose, Pantheon, or t$ in it. Imo the issue is the tiers: even that out a bit and it would have been more interesting. The way things were, lower tiers were pushed towards IQ, and uppers were pushed towards TKR/Syndi, because the alternative would be to get steamrolled. Politics was kinda hamstrung by tactical military prudence rather than new friendships or ideology.

 

Whatever. Am I getting too philosophical? Blam boom boom war! Enjoy everyone.

[Yosodog]

Like 4 tha return of Yoso. If this gets more than 50 likes I'll coup.

 

Edit: guys that hit 25 likes in like 30 mins. Pls stop I don't wanna clean this mess. It's time to drain the swamp. Idk what I wanna do anymore.

Edited April 17, 2017 by Yosodog

[Buorhann]

Imo? And this is pure spitballing, so take it for what it is: Take NPO, Zodiac, or BK out of Inquisition, and put Rose, Pantheon, or t$ in it. Imo the issue is the tiers: even that out a bit and it would have been more interesting. The way things were, lower tiers were pushed towards IQ, and uppers were pushed towards TKR/Syndi, because the alternative would be to get steamrolled. Politics was kinda hamstrung by tactical military prudence rather than new friendships or ideology.

 

Whatever. Am I getting too philosophical? Blam boom boom war! Enjoy everyone.

 

Or people can build up to fill those gaps.  CoughNPOCough.

 

If NPO was of mid-tier size (Say majority 12 or 13 cities) - this would've definitely been a different war.  They already had majority low tiers as a coalition.  They needed more Oomph up in the mid-tier so better updeclares could happen.

Like 4 tha return of Yoso. If this gets more than 50 likes I'll coup.

 

Which one of you will throw logs at me to drop after a remerger doesn't work properly?

[durmij]

Or people can build up to fill those gaps.  CoughNPOCough.

 

If NPO was of mid-tier size (Say majority 12 or 13 cities) - this would've definitely been a different war.  They already had majority low tiers as a coalition.  They needed more Oomph up in the mid-tier so better updeclares could happen.

Too bad they suck at econ otherwise they would all be there

[Guest Curufinwe]

I could've pushed it sure, but it didn't seem like either of you two seriously considered it so I saw no point in pushing it (Also ran into a lack of time to spend on PnW FA, hence why Lordship is now King and I'm just an adviser ).

 

Edit: Formatting

 

Yep, that was the conversation I was alluding to. You mentioned it once 4 months ago and I never heard anything from you about it again (and you never mentioned your subsequent conversation with Bezzers to me as I recall). Given that you never brought it up again it didn't strike me as something you were particularly invested in, especially in light of your later reactions to the FA moves made by your erstwhile allies in the other logs you've been kind enough to provide. So yeah, doesn't really contradict my point that you guys didn't seriously push for any sort of substantive change. Edited April 17, 2017 by Curufinwe

[Vanek26]

Yep, that was the conversation I was alluding to. You mentioned it once 4 months ago and I never heard anything from you about it again (and you never mentioned your subsequent conversation with Bezzers to me as I recall). Given that you never brought it up again it didn't strike me as something you were particularly invested in, especially in light of your later reactions to the FA moves made by your erstwhile allies in the other logs you've been kind enough to provide. So yeah, doesn't really contradict my point that you guys didn't seriously push for any sort of substantive change.

 

Eh, all I got from those logs was it was all Rose's fault. 

[Infice]

Imo? And this is pure spitballing, so take it for what it is: Take NPO, Zodiac, or BK out of Inquisition, and put Rose, Pantheon, or t$ in it. Imo the issue is the tiers: even that out a bit and it would have been more interesting. The way things were, lower tiers were pushed towards IQ, and uppers were pushed towards TKR/Syndi, because the alternative would be to get steamrolled. Politics was kinda hamstrung by tactical military prudence rather than new friendships or ideology.

 

Whatever. Am I getting too philosophical? Blam boom boom war! Enjoy everyone.

 

If you asked us a few months ago, no BK members who ever thought that we should sign NPO. However, signing NPO can indeed be seen as drastically changing the status quo; two bitter enemies allying months later. If you look at it, the chances of any other alliances on Syndisphere who would agree to allying NPO is pretty low. The inclusion of Zodiac is pretty much a foregone conclusion since they seems to be amicable to us from the very start of the proposal of Syndisphere splitting. I'd argue that the creation of the bloc was due to friendships/ideaology, a result of like-minded leaders coming together wanting to do something "different". This is talking solely about FA relations between leaders of alliances rather than strength of individual alliances.

 

On the military side, it does indeed makes sense to sign NPO. They are reasonably good at wars compared to other alliances, Zodiac after the merger is also in a pretty good spot as a ally militarily Unfortunately, it did meant the consolidation of the mid tier. It does fit into BK's strength of dominating mid tier and up-declaring however, even though your upper tier is probably too large for our mid tier to defeat in a war.

 

It is easy for us to look at the Syndisphere situation and decide which alliance should be in split up into the different spheres equally to make things more even, however, the human element will always come into play to distort things. The current result were choices the leaders and FA of different alliances decided. I may not like it but at the end of the day, it is just a game, we get to war with challenges despite the advantages each side have. I will just roll along with it.

[Sans]

Yep, that was the conversation I was alluding to. You mentioned it once 4 months and I never heard anything from you about it again (and you never mentioned your subsequent conversation with Bezzers to me as I recall). Given that you never brought it up again it didn't strike me as something you were particularly invested in, especially in light of your later reactions to the FA moves made by your erstwhile allies in the other logs you've been kind enough to provide. So yeah, doesn't really contradict my point that you guys didn't seriously push for any sort of substantive change.

What are you talking about, he brought up an actual change in the dynamic and you immediately shot it down. A change I might add that was at its core game defining in scope. 

 

Curu- Well you didn't seriously push for change

Us- What are you talking about we brought up an idea and you shot it down

Curu-Yeah but you didn't push hard enough you should have ignored by disapproval and asked again anyway

Us- We asked Bezzers again like a month later and he didn't like it either

Curu- That doesn't count, I never heard of it. 

 

 

What are you some kind of fa tsundere?

[EliteCanada]

Yep, that was the conversation I was alluding to. You mentioned it once 4 months and I never heard anything from you about it again (and you never mentioned your subsequent conversation with Bezzers to me as I recall). Given that you never brought it up again it didn't strike me as something you were particularly invested in, especially in light of your later reactions to the FA moves made by your erstwhile allies in the other logs you've been kind enough to provide. So yeah, doesn't really contradict my point that you guys didn't seriously push for any sort of substantive change.

 

Just one worthless tS opinion, but... If he offers a change such as that one and you don't respond to it in any meaningful way nor does Bezzers it isn't really apt to say he didn't push for substantive change. In this thread you said you "called him out" (or at least TKR in general) on not pushing for substantive change, but your definition of substantive change was dropping tS and failing that marrying into a tier you'd dominate. At worst you can say you equally wanted change, but didn't agree on the how.

 

Alright, time to disappear back to obscurity and irrelevance.

 

TLDR: can't saying asking you and Bezzers for change and being denied isn't seeking change then "call out" TKR.

Edited April 17, 2017 by EliteCanada

[durmij]

Eh, all I got from those logs was it was all Rose's fault. 

Always and forever

[ArcKnox]

Like 4 tha return of Yoso. If this gets more than 50 likes I'll coup.

 

Edit: guys that hit 25 likes in like 30 mins. Pls stop I don't wanna clean this mess. It's time to drain the swamp. Idk what I wanna do anymore.

 

Edited April 17, 2017 by ArcKnox

[Buorhann]

If you asked us a few months ago, no BK members who ever thought that we should sign NPO. However, signing NPO can indeed be seen as drastically changing the status quo; two bitter enemies allying months later.

 

I stopped reading after this.

 

From what I gathered, a lot of us didn't mind you or whoever else branching out to previous known rivals.  Afterall, Syndicate tried with UPN.  Mensa tried with UPN, but succeeded with Rose.  TKR signed HBE.  BK previously had UPN signed.  I mean, even BoC and CS joined up with the Syndisphere/OO side through this type of action when they were previously part of ParaCov.

 

That sort of stuff happens all the time.

 

What bothered A LOT of us was the lack of information on that front.  I got that information straight from the forums, but apparently DVD spoke to Avruch about it.  In any case, we had less than 12 hours notification on it as an ally (And I think even Syndicate was treated the same).  Granted there's no real clause here that was broken given our treaty signing, but we felt we'd be given some sort of courtesy on it given the history.  Following that and we hear all sorts of other things right after that (Just look at the back and forth between BK and TKR here).

 

The difference here though is that when others have attempted to sign known rivals, we usually went into thorough discussion about it to weed out any potential bad thoughts regarding it.  For example,  we (Mensa) knew that signing Rose would've pissed off a couple of people (In particular, Syndicate members), so we took a lot of time to ease things down if there were any issues brought up.  Most likely nobody saw this coming at all.  I don't even think Rose members thought we'd seriously consider signing them at the time, but we gave it a shot.  And while some people didn't like it or appreciate it, it was something we were willing to take a risk.  If it didn't work, we'd have cut it and parted ways, and we expressed this to both our allies and Rose gov.

 

Fortunately it worked out.

 

But that's the issue here, is that there was a severe lack of communication and considering that most government in BK know how much we pride communication (Especially during wars or solving issues) - this is something they should've known ahead of time to make sure they don't mess up.  I even mentioned to a couple of people that if I had known there were issues in OO, I would've offered to mediate it and make sure that things got resolved peacefully between both OO and Syndisphere if a split was to truely happen.  Afterall, they did us a solid for over 2 years, so it's the least we could do for them.  Unfortunately, that was too late of an offer as things already happened.

 

I seriously do hope it works out for CS, Zodiac, and BK along with their new sphere and allies.  I really do.  It's nice spicing things up here and there.  And I'm sure they're going to share some of their experiences they had here with the other side, at which in turn, I hope makes things more challenging in the future.

Edited April 17, 2017 by Buorhann

[Buorhann]

Like 4 tha return of Yoso. If this gets more than 50 likes I'll coup.

 

Edit: guys that hit 25 likes in like 30 mins. Pls stop I don't wanna clean this mess. It's time to drain the swamp. Idk what I wanna do anymore.

 

 

Too late.

[Queen M II]

 Pls stop I don't wanna clean this mess. It's time to drain the swamp. Idk what I wanna do anymore.

Join the Knights on the right side of history #TKR

[LordStrum]

Like 4 tha return of Yoso. If this gets more than 50 likes I'll coup.

 

Edit: guys that hit 25 likes in like 30 mins. Pls stop I don't wanna clean this mess. It's time to drain the swamp. Idk what I wanna do anymore.

good luck with that

 

I'll be over here retired because

 

[Guest Curufinwe]

What are you talking about, he brought up an actual change in the dynamic and you immediately shot it down. A change I might add that was at its core game defining in scope.

 

Curu- Well you didn't seriously push for change

Us- What are you talking about we brought up an idea and you shot it down

Curu-Yeah but you didn't push hard enough you should have ignored by disapproval and asked again anyway

Us- We asked Bezzers again like a month later and he didn't like it either

Curu- That doesn't count, I never heard of it.

 

 

What are you some kind of fa tsundere?

TKR: brought up vague idea that constituted a handful of lines in a lengthy conversation, but never expanded on or refined the idea in any way (that's the first time I've seen that handy spreadsheet for example)

BK: makes a joke about Pacifica

TKR: ends the conversation immediately and never mentions the idea again to BK, tries to talk to BoC (but doesn't mention it to BK), doesn't bring it up in any of the joint servers that we inhabit for serious discussion, try to convince anyone that it is a serious idea or make any sort of argument in its favor (while at the same time trying to block​ other FA moves by its allies) and then trots it out 4 months later as evidence that, despite all actions to the contrary, TKR was serious about pushing for change.

BK: doubts that TKR was serious about pushing for change since its actions don't appear to match its words.

 

I mean, I do understand that IC had been busy with school (which is completely fine), but if TKR was so open to embracing this idea (as you claim), surely someone could have found the time to actually have a serious discussion about it over the course of the 2 or 3 month period in which absolutely nothing was happening? We seem to have plenty of time to post in this thread, so maybe you could have cleared an afternoon or something over that 60+ day span of time? I have a pretty flexible schedule.

 

Eh, all I got from those logs was it was all Rose's fault.

 

Can confirm

 

Too late.

Get rekt Yoso Edited April 17, 2017 by Curufinwe

[Katie]

yosodog is bk's only hope

[Roquentin]

Imo? And this is pure spitballing, so take it for what it is: Take NPO, Zodiac, or BK out of Inquisition, and put Rose, Pantheon, or t$ in it. Imo the issue is the tiers: even that out a bit and it would have been more interesting. The way things were, lower tiers were pushed towards IQ, and uppers were pushed towards TKR/Syndi, because the alternative would be to get steamrolled. Politics was kinda hamstrung by tactical military prudence rather than new friendships or ideology.

 

Whatever. Am I getting too philosophical? Blam boom boom war! Enjoy everyone.

 

It's just like you said, none of the alliances you mentioned wanted to. Before any split happened there was a growing consolidation of upper-mid upper tier alliances on the Syndisphere: Pantheon definitively joining the Syndisphere, Commonwealth joining,  Rose, and so on. All of those alliances seemingly made their decisions based on the Syndisphere providing them the maximum amount of security they could find at the time. Given there were no moves by tS either, this was the only split that could happen.  In between the Silent War and now, there was an increasing incorporation of statistically significant alliances(even previous neutrals like ex-GPA, TFP and WTF now) into Syndisphere to the point where losing Zodiac, BK, and CS only made it even and those were the only ones willing to push any change forward.  There is also seemingly an issue where the more hyperactive alliances don't want to deal with the issue of potentially having a harder time of it by fighting others of the same caliber and having to carry more of the burden. From a pure tactical standpoint, it makes sense, but from people saying they don't want a stagnant game, it doesn't.

Edited April 17, 2017 by Roquentin

[Sketchy]

Like 4 tha return of Yoso. If this gets more than 50 likes I'll coup.

 

Edit: guys that hit 25 likes in like 30 mins. Pls stop I don't wanna clean this mess. It's time to drain the swamp. Idk what I wanna do anymore.

Done. Now do it no balls.