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Changing Ground Control & Air Superiority


Alex
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To help nerf aircraft, my thoughts are this:

 

Ground Control no longer limits the number of enemy aircraft that can be used, but if you have Ground Control, each successive ground attack destroys some amount of the opponent's planes, my thoughts on numbers are 3% for Immense Triumph, 2% for Moderate Success, 1% for Pyrrhic Victory. That makes ground forces a reasonable counter to a superior airforce.

 

Next, Air Superiority should be changed so that it is not a direct counter to Ground Forces. Instead, it should help to counter Fortify - if you opponent has Air Superiority over you, Fortifying only increases your resistance by 5 (instead of 10.)

 

My thinking is that would make it possible (although still very difficult) to defeat an opponent who is only using Fortify in war, while also nerfing Aircraft and giving them a counter in a rock-paper-scissors fashion. Ships would still somewhat counter Ground because they're the fastest way to win a war, and you could just outrace an opponent who had a superior ground force if you had a superior naval force.

 

Just a spitball of an idea, so I appreciate feedback here.

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Fortify should be removed.

 

Using rock paper scissors as the example:

 

Soldiers Beat Ships (Soldiers should be able to execute a "boarding", killing some ships, and if an immense triumph, giving a penalty to navy effectiveness.)

Ships Beat Planes (Reduced infrastructure damage, instead have naval attacks shell air bases killing some planes)

Planes Beat Tanks (Air Superiority)

Tanks Beat Soldiers (Normal Ground Attack)

Tanks Beat Planes (Ground Superiority)

Soldiers Beat Planes (Ground Superiority)

Planes Beat infra. (lol)

 

Additionally, ships should have a "Naval Raid" option, that costs 4 maps, and loots similar to ground attacks and a higher rate, but does no infrastructure damage.

Edited by Sketchy
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 Ships would still somewhat counter Ground because they're the fastest way to win a war, and you could just outrace an opponent who had a superior ground force if you had a superior naval force.

 

not true.

 

if someone uses only ground attacks and doesn't waste any maps ships will never beat ground

 

30 maps used with ground = 100R

28 maps used with ships ( + 2 maps queued) = 98R

 

 

i think cutting fortification in half is too much. 6 would be a better number. i think it would give the defending nation an immediate question to answer - do i fight back or do i fortify turtle the entire time. if you cut it in half all it takes is ground attacks the entire time. over 60 map (and 20 attacks) the attacker reduces 200R. 20 fortifications = 100R. this is a guaranteed loss with 100% fortification. a defender that tries to whittle down their opponent through moderate or phyrric victories has this turn requirement reduced further. ships now do 210R damage in this time.

 

this idea would work in 1v1 type scenarios, but the actual gameplay rarely does 1v1 fights. also the damage/war system in itself does not properly support a 1v1 as barring any major blunders by the aggressor once you get to any form of higher city count.

 

 

i think fortification would be better off removed entirely than reducing it by 5. all it would really serve to do is prolong the beige causing more infra damage during this period. preventing the beige is 99% of fortifications value.

 

 

edit: i think an altogether better option than fortification is to raise the floor for looting during mid war but keeping the loot higher during the beige mechanic. 100k is an extremely little amount to mount a comeback. it makes no sense that one ground attack on one city loots from every city. if the purpose of fortification is to allow a defender to mount a fight back this low floor will largely undermine it as a nation wont have the working capital to buy units to fight back (hence the delayed beige i was talking about). to me it doesn't make sense that a 1 city nation and a 30 city nation have the same operating cash floor. they are entirely different war experiences. 100k gets you 25 planes, or 2 ships. if this tweak is implemented to the war system it incentivizes ground attacks and ship attacks heavily as they guarantee beige. ground attacks will continually steal the money. naval attacks will embargo the nation from selling to get more cash. planes would still be able to mount a comeback but aha! we dont have recourse to get the money to buy them apart from selling our expensive improvements like stadiums and drydocks and air force bases which would lower your military might.

 

i suppose the only real option is purchasing credits (you capitalist dog you!) which have a redemption limit.

Edited by seabasstion
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To help nerf aircraft, my thoughts are this:

 

Ground Control no longer limits the number of enemy aircraft that can be used, but if you have Ground Control, each successive ground attack destroys some amount of the opponent's planes, my thoughts on numbers are 3% for Immense Triumph, 2% for Moderate Success, 1% for Pyrrhic Victory. That makes ground forces a reasonable counter to a superior airforce.

 

Next, Air Superiority should be changed so that it is not a direct counter to Ground Forces. Instead, it should help to counter Fortify - if you opponent has Air Superiority over you, Fortifying only increases your resistance by 5 (instead of 10.)

 

My thinking is that would make it possible (although still very difficult) to defeat an opponent who is only using Fortify in war, while also nerfing Aircraft and giving them a counter in a rock-paper-scissors fashion. Ships would still somewhat counter Ground because they're the fastest way to win a war, and you could just outrace an opponent who had a superior ground force if you had a superior naval force.

 

Just a spitball of an idea, so I appreciate feedback here.

I would have Ground Attacks destroy Aircraft regardless (as there will always be a chance of hitting aircraft sitting on the tarmac). Have the upper range be 3/2/1 by default and it gets increased if you have Ground Control.

 

To somewhat counter planes, I'd add opposing Soldiers/Tanks for considering aircraft losses to airstrikes (except against Naval Ships) and add opposing Naval Ships for considering aircraft losses when targeting ships.

 

As for Control in general, on thinking about it I'd actually increase opposing casualties and add 1 bonus resistance to attacks.

- Ground Control: Increase opposing soldier/tank casualties (from Ground Attacks). Increase aircraft destroyed by attacks. Ground Attacks now eliminate 11 resistance.

- Air Control: Increase opposing aircraft casualties (from Airstrikes). Increase casualties from specific Airstrikes (Soldiers/Tanks/Naval). Airstrikes now eliminate 13 resistance.

- Sea Control: Increase opposing naval casualties (from Naval Attacks). Naval Attacks now eliminate 15 resistance.

 

I'd also add in the following Naval actions:

- Target Barracks: Picks a random city and a random number of barracks are shelled. Random number of soldiers are killed. Minor amounts of infrastructure damage, chance of Barracks being destroyed. Some potential enemy Naval Ship casualties.

- Target Factories: Picks a random city and a random number of factories are shelled. Random number of tanks are destroyed. Minor amounts of infrastructure damage, chance of Factory being destroyed. Some potential enemy Naval Ship casualties.

- Target Hangars: Picks a random city and a random number of hangars are shelled. Random number of planes are destroyed. Minor amounts of infrastructure damage, chance of Hangar being destroyed. Some potential enemy Naval Ship casualties.

- Target Naval Ships: Directly engages enemy naval forces. No infrastructure damage done.

- Target Infrastructure: Moderate to large amount of infrastructure damage. Some potential enemy Naval Ship casualties.

 

Now if you have control, they are less able to defend from that area and it's harder for them to regain it directly. Instead, you have to indirectly lower their forces and regain control that way.

 

Soldiers Beat Ships (Soldiers should be able to execute a "boarding", killing some ships, and if an immense triumph, giving a penalty to navy effectiveness.)

I don't see 100,000 soldiers trying to board the ships. It would be a slaughter (on their part) and not exactly stealthy ;) I'd personally just leave it to Espionage, with the concept of "boarding ships" and destroying them.

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I don't agree with the concept of making Ground attacks killing aircraft. I would support this idea if we were using a "Defense/Offense" system where you select the number of units that are defending and those that are attacking. 

The United States of Belveria

 

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I don't agree with the concept of making Ground attacks killing aircraft. I would support this idea if we were using a "Defense/Offense" system where you select the number of units that are defending and those that are attacking.

So you don't think if an invading army happens to pass a bunch of planes lying on the tarmac, they wouldn't blow them up? Or that an invading army wouldn't have a few SAMs, to take out low flying planes?

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mhmm

IMO, it would actually be a nerf to ground forces because it would take 14 immense triumphs to reduce an opponent's planes to under 67%, or what ground superiority used to do with only one immense triumph.

 

It would allow players who didn't care about infra damage or money lost from looting to build nothing but planes and roll over players with a more varied military because the effect of ground control will now be gradual, instead of instant.

 

If this is the strategy that this change encourages, then the "nerf" to air control wouldn't have much impact because tanks are still vulnerable to airstrikes (airstrikes are more efficient at destroying tanks than ground battles now) and would get bombed away before the attacker did a double buy and got back ground control...

 

Basically, it would kill the only counter for the "ground zero" thing that t$ was doing a while back.

[insert quote here]

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Ground units can only kill ground units.

Naval units can only kill naval units.

Air units can kill any units. < What makes them OP

 

The solution needs to be that either air units can only kill air units.

Or Ground/Naval units can kill any units.

Or Air units can only kill 1 type of additional units, same with ground and naval. Air kills sea > sea kills ground > ground kills air, or whatever.

 

The reason planes are OP is they can kill anything while the other units can only kill themselves.

 

With the current resistance system making it so planes only killing planes could make an interesting tweak in terms trying to actual win fights. You can win the air game but that doesn't make you win the ground game. To expand on this you can make the superiority a little different. Have it be a round robin. Ground gives advantage against air. Air gives advantage against navy. Navy gives advantage against ground. 

 

The fortify mechanic is good in that it gives people losing something to do and time more effective counters and such, but it needs to be limited. Whether that means reduced effect with multiple uses, you have to perform other actions in between multiple fortifies, or if you're only allowed to fortify X amount of resistance per war. Just needs to be restricted. Take it from someone abusing the hell out of it, having unlimited fortify and being effectively undefeatable is broken. 

Edited by Prefontaine
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What Pre said. Also ships should be able to loot as well. Ships could just send smaller landing bots filled with sailors (or pirates) and loot city, pretty much same way soldiers adn tanks do and laod it into ships' massive cargo hold and go away with it. Only airplanes shouldn't be able to loot since they have to actually aland on an airfield, have very limited space onboard and so on. Resistance is fine, gives you something to do while you wait for opportunity to strike back, wheter it's waiting for backup, for your opponent to drop his guard or double buy it's good either way. I managed to win couple of wars by being the more patient fighter, fortifying and doing suprise naval attacks buy selling expensive improvments or redeming a cred breaking torugh blockade, accessing alliance bank and then amamsive massive fleet and beiging opponents before they could take my remaining 6-14 resistance.

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What Pre said. Also ships should be able to loot as well. Ships could just send smaller landing bots filled with sailors (or pirates) and loot city, pretty much same way soldiers adn tanks do and laod it into ships' massive cargo hold and go away with it. Only airplanes shouldn't be able to loot since they have to actually aland on an airfield, have very limited space onboard and so on. Resistance is fine, gives you something to do while you wait for opportunity to strike back, wheter it's waiting for backup, for your opponent to drop his guard or double buy it's good either way. I managed to win couple of wars by being the more patient fighter, fortifying and doing suprise naval attacks buy selling expensive improvments or redeming a cred breaking torugh blockade, accessing alliance bank and then amamsive massive fleet and beiging opponents before they could take my remaining 6-14 resistance.

 

Was tossing the idea of Ships looting resources instead of cash. Or the blockade taking a portion of produced resources.

Edited by Prefontaine
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Ground units can only kill ground units.

Naval units can only kill naval units.

Air units can kill any units. < What makes them OP

That was why I setup my post as I did, with allowing ground to kill air and navy to target everything (via bombardments). Along with the changes to how aircraft losses are calculated, so that it's not just opposing planes that factor.
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To help nerf aircraft, my thoughts are this:

 

Ground Control no longer limits the number of enemy aircraft that can be used, but if you have Ground Control, each successive ground attack destroys some amount of the opponent's planes, my thoughts on numbers are 3% for Immense Triumph, 2% for Moderate Success, 1% for Pyrrhic Victory. That makes ground forces a reasonable counter to a superior airforce.

 

Next, Air Superiority should be changed so that it is not a direct counter to Ground Forces. Instead, it should help to counter Fortify - if you opponent has Air Superiority over you, Fortifying only increases your resistance by 5 (instead of 10.)

 

My thinking is that would make it possible (although still very difficult) to defeat an opponent who is only using Fortify in war, while also nerfing Aircraft and giving them a counter in a rock-paper-scissors fashion. Ships would still somewhat counter Ground because they're the fastest way to win a war, and you could just outrace an opponent who had a superior ground force if you had a superior naval force.

 

Just a spitball of an idea, so I appreciate feedback here.

 

Air is way over powered when fighting against Navy. I had complete fleets of ships wiped out by a few air attacks. With no air losses from the enemy.

 

IRL Air is always most effective vs ground forces (google "iraq highway of death" if you want a perfect example)... any attempt to sink a fleet of 10+ coordinated modern warships would see at least 80%+ loss of aircraft in a real world scenario. By the time your close enough to shoot at them they can shoot at you, often with more effective and more numerous Anti-air missiles. The way it plays now its like the enemy is bombing unarmed cargo ships.  

 

Anyway... just my 2 cents but if you want to nerf air I'd look at navy.

 

On the resistance side... I don't know about mechanics BUT I do know IRL the only real way to crack an underdog force in "fortify" mode is via ground forces. Lots of ground forces, normally in bloody street to street/village to village clearance operations. Maybe ground control could power up that way?

Edited by King Wally
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Ground units can only kill ground units.

Naval units can only kill naval units.

Air units can kill any units. < What makes them OP

 

The solution needs to be that either air units can only kill air units.

Or Ground/Naval units can kill any units.

Or Air units can only kill 1 type of additional units, same with ground and naval. Air kills sea > sea kills ground > ground kills air, or whatever.

 

The reason planes are OP is they can kill anything while the other units can only kill themselves.

 

With the current resistance system making it so planes only killing planes could make an interesting tweak in terms trying to actual win fights. You can win the air game but that doesn't make you win the ground game. To expand on this you can make the superiority a little different. Have it be a round robin. Ground gives advantage against air. Air gives advantage against navy. Navy gives advantage against ground.

 

The fortify mechanic is good in that it gives people losing something to do and time more effective counters and such, but it needs to be limited. Whether that means reduced effect with multiple uses, you have to perform other actions in between multiple fortifies, or if you're only allowed to fortify X amount of resistance per war. Just needs to be restricted. Take it from someone abusing the hell out of it, having unlimited fortify and being effectively undefeatable is broken. 

 

^This

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I don't see 100,000 soldiers trying to board the ships. It would be a slaughter (on their part) and not exactly stealthy

They could just #OccupyPortStreet and let the people on the ship starve. 

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To help nerf aircraft, my thoughts are this:

 

Ground Control no longer limits the number of enemy aircraft that can be used, but if you have Ground Control, each successive ground attack destroys some amount of the opponent's planes, my thoughts on numbers are 3% for Immense Triumph, 2% for Moderate Success, 1% for Pyrrhic Victory. That makes ground forces a reasonable counter to a superior airforce.

 

Next, Air Superiority should be changed so that it is not a direct counter to Ground Forces. Instead, it should help to counter Fortify - if you opponent has Air Superiority over you, Fortifying only increases your resistance by 5 (instead of 10.)

 

My thinking is that would make it possible (although still very difficult) to defeat an opponent who is only using Fortify in war, while also nerfing Aircraft and giving them a counter in a rock-paper-scissors fashion. Ships would still somewhat counter Ground because they're the fastest way to win a war, and you could just outrace an opponent who had a superior ground force if you had a superior naval force.

 

Just a spitball of an idea, so I appreciate feedback here.

That would buff planes, not nerf them.  Ground control and the 2/3rds is the only chance someone with fewer planes has.

It would be better if planes took casualties from hitting ships or ground, in addition to whatever losses from fighting the enemy air force.

Edited by Ogaden
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