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Should Teachers get paid more?


Frank Todd
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So many people will argue that Teachers get an adequate salary. Now I know there are a handful of people out there who would say that we do get paid "just the right amount" or that Education is adequately funded now and days, but if you were to ask a teacher anywhere... They will tell you otherwise.

 

So what do you think? Do teachers get paid enough, or are they just complaining over nothing?

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I'm sure most people in most jobs would say they don't get paid enough, they're merely complaining about what everyone complains about. 

Lol true but do most of those people accrue debt from schools and then get paid about the same as say a supervisor at mcdonalds?

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No. If you wanted to get paid more you should have chosen a different career path.

 

Plus I'd rather people teach because they want to teach not because it pays well.

 

What makes teachers so special anyway? I can name 10 jobs that are twice as hard, just as important to society, and get paid less. 

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I'm going by what I've gone through personally but I've had teachers who wasn't just there to teach but also had served as a counselor.

 

One that I remember in particular was my teacher in fourth grade. My parents were going through another rough patch in their relationship and were arguing like crazy plus it wasn't long after something bad had happened to me (I won't reveal what) so I was withdrawing socially. My teacher saw what was happening and had asked me to help her set up for a class project she was gonna show and had actually took the time to talk to me and ask what was going on. She was understanding and had always reminded me I could come to her whenever I needed someone to talk to.

 

I think this is why some people do think teachers should be paid more because you have teachers who do put in the time to go above and beyond to help kids (and sometimes you have kids who don't want to learn and give teachers a hard time over it) and think they should get more for it.

 

But I think also what teachers should also get is lessons in classroom management. As I stated above teachers are going to get problem students and those students might take up a majority of the class, and they're practically being thrown out in the ocean with a sink or swim option on how to handle it. Some teachers can find something that works, some can't but I'd like them to at least know where they can start.

Nerd To The Core

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Teachers are generally paid less then someone with equal education and experience in other fields would be paid.  If you pay less then average you will attract a lower quality of person to the job..

However, traditionally, teachers(a female dominated profession) have bartered away salary increases for better insurance and pensions(security).  What you see now is that States can't afford the pensions or insurance they've agreed to pay, and are reneging, leaving teachers without the pensions or insurance they were promised, and with the lower pay they agreed to.

 

Using google as a primary source(bad research there...best my lazy ass will do right now),

5-9 years of experience with a Bachelor's degree is 63,297

5-9 years of experience for Teachers is 44,277

 

That's a huge difference.

 

You get what you pay for.  I pay over 8k a year in property tax and it all(95%) goes to the local school district.  Do I want to pay 12k to support a 50% raise for teachers?  No, no I don't.

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Duke of House Greyjoy

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Do teachers get paid enough?

Tough questions really, personally, I believe that teacher's salary depends on their quality of teaching. Teachers in a country where the mere thoughts of ridiculous stuff like "Earth is flat", "Global warming isn't real", "Dinosaurs are not real", NASA hoax, feminazism exist clearly shouldn't get the same salary as those in a country with good education where most of the population are - in a sense - normal; in fact, they shouldn't get a salary at all and should all be fired.

 

 

Should teachers get paid more?

This however, I'd have to agree with Alex. You don't raise the education level just by saying if teachers don't like this salary, they shouldn't have pick this profession in the first place. Doing this alienated potential good teachers that otherwise would have been interested in the job and teach your students better than your current generation of teachers ever could.

 

Don't know about you guys, but back in my home, teachers get paid a little more than a fast food employees so they either work overtime 24/7 or quit altogether. Just having a love for teaching isn't enough to pay your taxes.

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Pretty much what Alex said. 

 

You want to know why the education system is mediocre? It's because everyone with talent and capacity looks at the average wage of a teacher and thinks to themselves "I'm smart, intelligent, and competent. I'm worth more than this and I can prove that by showing you 6 different job offers with significantly better benefits and pay." 

 

Sure, there are people who are morally and intrinsically motivated to go into education, but there are too few to make the grade. 

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It's a useful mental exercise. Through the years, many thinkers have been fascinated by it. But I don't enjoy playing. It was a game that was born during a brutal age when life counted for little. Everyone believed that some people were worth more than others. Kings. Pawns. I don't think that anyone is worth more than anyone else. Chess is just a game. Real people are not pieces. You can't assign more value to some of them and not others. Not to me. Not to anyone. People are not a thing that you can sacrifice. The lesson is, if anyone who looks on to the world as if it was a game of chess, deserves to lose.

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You get what you pay for.  I pay over 8k a year in property tax and it all(95%) goes to the local school district.  Do I want to pay 12k to support a 50% raise for teachers?  No, no I don't.

 

 

Boom this right here, !@#$ property taxes, mine are high enough.

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I'm engaged with a lady who has a doctorate in biological sciences.  She teaches college students.  Her pay does not even come close to the amount of work she does.

 

If you are a teacher, or live with a teacher, you'll have a good understanding on the amount of paper work, stress, and demand of time they have to go through.

 

Keep in mind, other than trade skills - you wouldn't have your career without having to go through teachers teaching you the subject matter for it (most of the time, there are some lucky fortunate people out there without needing school).

 

 

Just some things I've observed:

 

-Everyday she leaves for work at 6:30am, for a 15min commute to the campus, and most days comes home around 7-8pm - depending on various stuff.

 

-We have SEVERAL STACKS and File cabinets full of papers from all of her students dating 5 years back.  She has to keep records of all these papers in case a student wants to contest a grade and tries to pull the school into court for it.  Digital records cannot work alone, there must be a physical copy.  Keep in mind she's teaching anywhere from 60 students upwards to 200 students per class.

 

-When she comes home, she has to check her email - otherwise it'll get swamped very quickly.  Often times she's answering around 30ish emails from students asking various questions, simply begging to redo an assignment, begging for extra credit, or simply insulting her intelligence on the subject matter.  Keep in mind, these are 18-22 year olds insulting a lady who has spent 10 years doing research in biological studies.  She's been a straight A student her entire life, except 1 B in an Algebra class in highschool and has done many publications in her researching post-grad.  In other words, she's !@#$ brilliant and will school you with knowledge in Biology, Zoology, and Anatomy & Physiology, but she's having to deal with these shitheads.

 

-For every 15 complaints, she gets 1 good compliment.  She loves those and thinks of those when she goes to work.  Often times, she saves them, because it helps her keep her sanity in her decision to work this job and help those few individuals that appreciate the sacrifice teachers put out there for students.

 

-Most teachers get paid on a monthly basis.  Most also do not get paid for the months January and August.  Some, like my lady, are required to work a full year (Including summer).  The only times we have to actually go out on vacation or have good quality time together is 3 weeks in May, and 3 weeks at the end of December to early January.  That's it.  There's also holidays, of course, but I'm sure you get the point that I was getting at.

 

 

Most people don't understand the sacrifice teachers make.  For example:  After we get married, we'd like to start up a family, but holy shit - planning for a family with the time we have?  Pain in the ass.  Sure, there are day cares and other options out there, but we want to be there for our (future) kids.  So it's an ongoing discussion weighing the pros and cons of various options.  Such as me being a stay-at-home Dad since she earns a tad more than I do, but that would hinder our take home income, therefore having to make more sacrifices - which is fine, we understand that's necessary.  Just saying, the options we are considering all have their upsides and downsides and it's a pain in the ass to figure out which one would be best.

 

 

So yeah, I'm definitely in the boat that teachers need to be paid more, or at least have the incentive to do better for better pay (They do not have this.  Goodluck getting a raise as a teacher).  I completely understand the perspective that low pay = low quality, minus the few exceptions that are very passionate about teaching (Like my lovely lady).  Often times I ask her why she sticks with it, but like I stated - she loves helping the few students who honestly care about their education and future.  Unfortunately, in today's society, there's not many of them.

Edited by Buorhann
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What makes teachers so special anyway? I can name 10 jobs that are twice as hard, just as important to society, and get paid less. 

 

I'm honestly curious.  Name them.

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I'd like teachers to be paid according to how well they teach but it's a hard thing to measure.

 

 

It's not a "hard thing to measure", so to speak.  Just look at student's attendance, their grades, any extra curricular activities that pertain to the school the student is in, and the student assessments of the teacher at the end of the semester.  And yes, your college teachers pay attention to those assessments, because it could potentially cause issues between them and their department heads - especially if they are consistently poor.  The state gov will look into your school's assessments each year.

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I dare say this thread could be a bit sexist regarding the quality of the average teacher who is female. 

 

I don't think the argument about the income is all that valid and certainly not enough to make a difference, ultimately it will be more of a burden on the tax payers. A lot of females pick career choices with less potential to advance, they quite often go for the less skilled work that has less of a demand for high quality. Possibly they choose it for the stability, the issue with stability is that you can't take risks that reward you. 

 

I don't think such a job demands high pay, its questionable if the quality would increase as just because someone on paper achieved more doesn't make them a better teacher. Not every teacher or every second teacher can be good, just average.

I do think there should be incentives for teachers to perform better but not for people to get into teaching, those incentives could be anything.

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A lot of females pick career choices with less potential to advance, they quite often go for the less skilled work that has less of a demand for high quality.

 

 

Yeah, that's sexist.  Or rather, that's not the exact reasoning, but the reasoning will lead to sexism.

Edited by Buorhann
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It really depends on how you get there. Should states and municipalities that are already in large amounts of debt be expected to foot the bill for higher teacher salaries? Should colleges that already have high tuition rates be able to raise them higher to pay their teachers more? Part of the issue with this is we have a category wherein we have an artificial demand(compulsory K-12 education) and no real way of determining what a market rate for it is in light of its artificiality. It would be nice to think we could pay those with virtuous careers an amount commensurate to their virtue, and I'm certainly not against it insofar as it's possible; but without an idea of what the trade off ends up being it's hard to make a value based judgement on what the end result would be.

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Should colleges that already have high tuition rates be able to raise them higher to pay their teachers more?

No, colleges that have ridiculous tuition rates (i.e. all of them) should be forced to cut bullshit spending and ridiculous administrator salaries to lower their predatory tuition rates that take advantage of students who have no choice and the fact that the government will loan students however much money they need to go to college. Once those cuts are made, even with tuition being lowered back to acceptable levels, there will be plenty left over to give professors a raise. At the end of the day, no college needs a !@#$ing football stadium. I don't give a !@#$ how important your football team is to your uni. K-12 is a completely different animal though, agreed.

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I dare say this thread could be a bit sexist regarding the quality of the average teacher who is female. 

 

I don't think the argument about the income is all that valid and certainly not enough to make a difference, ultimately it will be more of a burden on the tax payers. A lot of females pick career choices with less potential to advance, they quite often go for the less skilled work that has less of a demand for high quality. Possibly they choose it for the stability, the issue with stability is that you can't take risks that reward you. 

 

I don't think such a job demands high pay, its questionable if the quality would increase as just because someone on paper achieved more doesn't make them a better teacher. Not every teacher or every second teacher can be good, just average.

I do think there should be incentives for teachers to perform better but not for people to get into teaching, those incentives could be anything.

This isn't about the unfairness of the sexes, this is about teachers as a whole.

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No. If you wanted to get paid more you should have chosen a different career path.

 

Plus I'd rather people teach because they want to teach not because it pays well.

 

What makes teachers so special anyway? I can name 10 jobs that are twice as hard, just as important to society, and get paid less. 

Lol I'm just gonna throw out that during my online schooling (after I got out of the Navy mind-you) I worked in construction. I made quite a bit an hour, at least 2k a week (which is fairly decent for a single college student just outta the military). I didn't go into teaching for the money, the topic came up in a recent vote in my state for wages of teachers and I thought it would be an interesting subject to discuss. Anywho, my point. I was paid more to shovel mud/clay (without any college degrees mind you) than I currently make teaching (to which thanks to my service, I don't have any debts, but others are not so fortunate). Every physical labor job I've ever been in has been decent pay, which pays far better than most teaching jobs (save for a hand-ful of masters degrees college profs that I've met). 

 

So I'm confused as to the jobs you speak of cause the school in which I teach at just had a teacher fired for working a second job during the night time (which most schools don't take kindly to). Which is a slap in the face considering that most teachers accrue school debts, and loans and what not for the promise of shitty rules and regulations that don't allow you to compensate for lack of wages.

 

But again, I don't do it for the money, I make enough to live comfortably, and I've never had any complaints about it (Save for my neighbors upstairs who play dubstep at max volume)

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Lol I'm just gonna throw out that during my online schooling (after I got out of the Navy mind-you) I worked in construction. I made quite a bit an hour, at least 2k a week (which is fairly decent for a single college student just outta the military). I didn't go into teaching for the money, the topic came up in a recent vote in my state for wages of teachers and I thought it would be an interesting subject to discuss. Anywho, my point. I was paid more to shovel mud/clay (without any college degrees mind you) than I currently make teaching (to which thanks to my service, I don't have any debts, but others are not so fortunate). Every physical labor job I've ever been in has been decent pay, which pays far better than most teaching jobs (save for a hand-ful of masters degrees college profs that I've met). 

 

So I'm confused as to the jobs you speak of cause the school in which I teach at just had a teacher fired for working a second job during the night time (which most schools don't take kindly to). Which is a slap in the face considering that most teachers accrue school debts, and loans and what not for the promise of shitty rules and regulations that don't allow you to compensate for lack of wages.

 

But again, I don't do it for the money, I make enough to live comfortably, and I've never had any complaints about it (Save for my neighbors upstairs who play dubstep at max volume)

Is it time to start telling teachers "Thank you for your service?"  My wife was more injured as a teacher breaking up fights between gangbangers then I was in my military service.  I enlisted for eight years, four on active duty, she taught for 11 years.  And I still get people saying "thank you for your service" to me(that didn't start til after 9/11, long after my enlistment ended).  

 

All she ever got from the school was "You are all terrible teachers because your students are poor and that means their test scores are low and we blame you!"  All she ever got from the state was "Yeah, you know that pension we promised you, yeah, you're not gonna get it cuz we're broke and we took your money and didn't invest it so..yeah, not gonna say sorry you greedy moocher"   There was a lot of recognition from her students at least, we still run into them from time to time and they remember her.  If any of my kids wanted to be a teacher, I would strongly steer them to another profession.  

 

Money is choices.  Go do a market-rate paying educated job for a decade, then teach if you want, now that you've got a retirement nest egg and a house that you've paid down some of the debt on.  

Duke of House Greyjoy

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  • 6 months later...
On 12/6/2016 at 7:47 PM, Gabranth said:

Teachers get paid whatever they're qualified to get paid, and whatever salary they sign onto. If they regret signing, then that is their fault. They could have became lecturers or tutors if they wanted to get paid more. Make your bed and sleep in it.

 

Across the board, do I think teachers don't get paid enough? Well first, let's define enough. The work you do should match your pay grade, right? Plumbers should get paid lot's because they wade in crap all day and do some pretty hard yakka, and burger flippers should get paid jack because their skills are bare minimum, and thus they should get minimum wage - whatever that may be. From a students perspective (that's me), teachers do two things - one, relay information from textbooks into something understandable, and two, mark tests and assignments. The second isn't really hard work. Sure, there might be a lot of it, but there is a correct and incorrect answer for tests, and a marking criteria for assignments. It's very simple stuff.

 

However, getting the information from a book into a students head might be a bit more difficult. In the worst case scenario, the teacher cannot explain the information to a student, and the student is forced to move to a different class. This happened to me on multiple occasions, albeit because I refused to learn. Not only is this a waste of time for the teachers, it also reflects on their vigilance and zeal, as they obviously didn't work hard enough to get me to understand. However, I understand that learning is a two-way street - a teacher must teach, but a student must also be open to learn.

 

This is where I have a problem with increasing teachers' pay grades. Most of the teachers who I've come into contact with (and I'm sure many with similar public education) have little to no drive to get the student to learn. If a student has questions, or is beginning to fall behind, teachers may or may not help depending on a few things - how they feel about the student, whether the teacher feels trying to help the student is worth their time, or if the student has an actual will to learn. In my experience, unless you meet all three criteria, the teacher is hesitant about one on one learning. 

 

I understand that the learning environment is different between my country and yours, however much of what I said is still true. I also understand that not all teachers do this, however I believe in a system of merit for this kind of work. If the teacher is a terrible teacher, who is rude to students and has no drive to help them, then their pay grade should reflect that, but if a teacher works with gusto and the students welcome his or her teaching, then their pay grade should reflect that also.

 

I believe in a varied salary amongst teachers, either in the public or private sector. As of now, it is only teachers who have worked longer who get pay increases, what they call "veteran teachers". I believe this is unfair to both young teachers, who are usually objectively superior teachers, as they can relate to the students better and generally have more personality, and hardworking teachers who take the time to help individual students. If there was some kind of rating system that the students had to judge a teachers work ethic, maybe a private ballot system, that the board used to calculate the appropriate salary for the next year, then I would be satisfied as that encourages hard work and friendly relations.

excellent post and I concur

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First, congrats on the engagement/marriage @Buorhann.

Second, basically what Alex said. Education ain't cheap, and funding isn't a valid argument. When the government really wants money for something, they always manage to draw it from somewhere, and claiming property taxes is an invalid argument as well, given that it is a holdover from the days of segregation. 

Furthermore, telling teachers "if you wanted to get paid more, you shouldn't have become a teacher" is a slap in the face. If the government is going to mandate that children be educated, then they better be ready to literally put their money where their mouth is. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

As a person who has moved from a successful career in the private sector to teaching, I can tell you that teaching does not pay as well. Only an idiot goes into teaching for the money. If you don't feel a vocational desire to teach, you should do something else. All things being equal, it's not hard to replace teachers, and the whole concept of tenure is a joke that only benefits them and fails students.

Good teachers are hard to find only because the system, unions, tenure...etc ensures that the chaff remains.

The problem is the culture of entitlement in academia - it is common for teachers to think that they do the most important job on earth. In a free market economy, all evidence suggests otherwise, and teachers are paid accordingly.

On 7/1/2017 at 1:38 AM, Joel James said:

First, congrats on the engagement/marriage @Buorhann.

Second, basically what Alex said. Education ain't cheap, and funding isn't a valid argument. When the government really wants money for something, they always manage to draw it from somewhere, and claiming property taxes is an invalid argument as well, given that it is a holdover from the days of segregation. 

Furthermore, telling teachers "if you wanted to get paid more, you shouldn't have become a teacher" is a slap in the face. If the government is going to mandate that children be educated, then they better be ready to literally put their money where their mouth is. 

As for government mandated education, would you really entrust the government with your child's education? I tutor my kids every night for 1-2 hours (they are 6 and 8), and am selective of the schools they attend. When they are a little older, I will put them in private school - not because I am Mr. Moneybags, but because my children's education is more important to me than eating.

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Are you originally from Earth, too?

Proud owner of Harry's goat. It's mine now.

I now own MinesomeMC's goat, too. It's starting to look like a herd.

Yep, it is a herd. Aldwulf has added his goat, too, and it ain't Irish.

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On 12/10/2016 at 3:22 PM, hadesflames said:

No, colleges that have ridiculous tuition rates (i.e. all of them) should be forced to cut bullshit spending and ridiculous administrator salaries to lower their predatory tuition rates that take advantage of students who have no choice How is it they don't have a choice? Administrator salaries are often high for the very good reason that the individuals drawn by it produce the best return from alumni. Paying those positions less means a reduction in alumni donation and the fact that the government will loan students however much money they need to go to college. Once those cuts are made (Those cuts will never be made. Maine at one point who believed tenured professors would be cheaper to pay hourly. After the majority started wracking up a bigger income due to many spending 100 or so hours per week, it was reversed quietly., even with tuition being lowered back to acceptable levels, there will be plenty left over to give professors a raise. Not enough of one. Teaching, for a lot of professors, the just a kind of errand they do in exchange for support for their research.  At the end of the day, no college needs a !@#$ing football stadium. Reduction of costs means keeping the alumni interested in the school. Sports facilities and related expenses are a major part of the overall fundraising universities do continuously. I don't give a !@#$ how important your football team is to your uni. Pleasantly they don't agree so nothing's going anywhere.

 

On 12/7/2016 at 2:11 PM, Buorhann said:

It's not a "hard thing to measure", so to speak.  Just look at student's attendance, their grades, any extra curricular activities that pertain to the school the student is in, and the student assessments of the teacher at the end of the semester.  And yes, your college teachers pay attention to those assessments, because it could potentially cause issues between them and their department heads - especially if they are consistently poor.  The state gov will look into your school's assessments each year. Teaching isn't the reason most professors with tenure are at the university. They're there to conduct research in their fields and in exchange for being housed on the campus and pulling in grant funding they're expected to do some light teaching. At the end of semesters instructors and professors are graded by students and it's occasionally used regarding tenure decisions, but is nowhere near any of the most important criteria used for those decisions.

 

All lower teachers need is a much stronger NEA.

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