2016 US Presidential Election PW Straw Poll

[Morgan]

 

 

Summary

 

Welcome to the 2016 US Presidential Election Politics and War Straw Poll! This straw poll will include nominees and presumptive nominees from the following four parties: Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, and Green. I ask that only US citizens (who will be 18+ on November 8, 2016) vote in this straw poll in order to keep results as accurate as possible for Americans eligible to vote in this election. I also ask that discussions in this area also be limited to discussion for US citizens. There are other existing areas that anyone may participate in, and this one is being created solely for those who will be voting for the US President. Candidates will be listed in alphabetical order by last name. Thank you in advance for allowing your American friends to have this area for voting and discussion. 

 

Candidates

 

 

Name: Hillary R Clinton

Party: Democrat

Campaign Website: https://www.hillaryclinton.com/ 

 

 

 

 

Name: Gary E Johnson

Party: Libertarian

Campaign Website: https://garyjohnson2016.com/ 

 

 

 

 

Name: Jill E Stein

Party: Green

Campaign Website: http://www.jill2016.com/

 

 

 

 

Name: Donald J Trump 

Party: Republican

Campaign Website: https://www.donaldjtrump.com/

Edited June 14, 2016 by Morgan

[Wulfharth]

I'm a Bernie supporter but imho I'd rather have Trump than Hillary.

[Morgan]

I'm a Bernie supporter but imho I'd rather have Trump than Hillary.

It seems to be a 50/50 with Bernie supporters in terms of supporting Trump or Clinton. 

[Speaker Faris Wheeler]

And yet Donald Trump still is coming out on top... :/

[Thalmor]

I'm a Bernie supporter but imho I'd rather have Trump than Hillary.

 

Welcome aboard the Trump Train!

 

GIVE THIS MAN A COAT!

[Morgan]

And yet Donald Trump still is coming out on top... :/

Who would you prefer Zelda?

[Franz Von Dietrich]

I support Bernie Sanders, but seeing how he's not an option, I'll be going with Jill Stein.

[Morgan]

To the Bernie supporters, I don't see what his appeal is honestly. Free stuff seems like a perfect idea for a perfect world. But it's an imperfect idea in an imperfect world. 

[Prince Hunter of Bavaria]

I was going to vote Bernie, but I will either gone E stien or Hillary, I do hope Bernie sanders does run, and they should recount California

[Speaker Faris Wheeler]

Who would you prefer Zelda?

Trump, just saying that there is no change regardless of how many people you put up there

[Dillon A McCann]

Trump is way to radical I don't understand how Bernie supporters can even think of supporting the orangutan.

[Dillon A McCann]

congratulating himself about how he new there would be another terrorist attack.

[Dillon A McCann]

Doesn't want to ban assault rifles.

Hes a cook

[Peace and War]

I want Bernie Sanders but if not I'm voting for Gary Johnson again

[WISD0MTREE]

Doesn't want to ban assault rifles.

Charles C.W. Cooke recently addressed this topic:

"It is difficult to overstate just how absurd this is. Even if we were to swallow whole the novel set of definitions that the advocates of “assault†weapons legislation have imposed upon our national deliberations, the case in favor of their coveted laws would remain all but nonexistent. Between 1994 and 2004, Americans were flatly barred from purchasing or transferring 660 arbitrarily selected semi-automatic firearms and from obtaining any magazine that could hold more than ten rounds. This prohibition had no discernible impact whatsoever. Charged in 1997 with evaluating the short term impact of the measure, the National Institute of Justice reported bluntly that “the evidence is not strong enough for us to conclude that there was any meaningful effect (i.e., that the effect was different from zero).†A second study, commissioned to coincide with the ban’s expiration in 2004, calmly echoed this conclusion, while noting for the record that there hadn’t been much of a problem in the first instance. No subsequent inquiry has contradicted these assessments."

[Morgan]

Doesn't want to ban assault rifles.

Hes a cook

Define "assault rifle" 

[Dillon A McCann]

IT IS DESIGNED FOR THE MILITARY NOT CIVILIANS 

 

as·sault ri·fle

noun

 

1. a rapid-fire, magazine-fed automatic rifle designed for infantry use.

[WISD0MTREE]

 

IT IS DESIGNED FOR THE MILITARY NOT CIVILIANS 

 

as·sault ri·fle

noun

 

1. a rapid-fire, magazine-fed automatic rifle designed for infantry use.

 

Great, so Dictionary.com now has legal weight? 

 

As per the ATF definition, assault rifles are fully automatic weapons. I don’t think you know what you’re talking about, almost no one owns those as they aren’t available to the average person. Do you mean â€œassault weaponsâ€? The term made up by anti-gunners? You know, “sporting rifles,†otherwise known as “semi-automatic riflesâ€?

 

On that note, the AR-15 was sold to civilians as a varmint rifle before the military adopted it. The military shouldn't adopt civilian guns. 

[Peace and War]

Anyone who wants to ban assault rifles has way too much trust in their government.

[Dillon A McCann]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/06/12/the-gun-used-in-the-orlando-shooting-is-becoming-mass-shooters-weapon-of-choice/

[Peace and War]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/06/12/the-gun-used-in-the-orlando-shooting-is-becoming-mass-shooters-weapon-of-choice/

I would rather live in a country where this happens every week than a country where we don't even have the tools to fight against a tyrannical government.

[WISD0MTREE]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/06/12/the-gun-used-in-the-orlando-shooting-is-becoming-mass-shooters-weapon-of-choice/

Ooh, an article! 

 

Last night in Orlando, a man armed with an assault-style rifle killed at least 50 people and wounded 53 others in a crowded nightclub.

Six months ago, in San Bernardino, Calif., a man and woman armed with assault-style rifles killed 14 people and wounded 20 others at a holiday party.

In 2012, in Aurora, Colo., a man armed with an assault-style rifle killed 12 people and wounded 58 others in a crowded movie theater.

Also in 2012, in Newtown Conn., a man armed with an assault-style rifle killed 28 people and wounded 2 others at an elementary school.

As I already stated ITT: 

As per the ATF definition, assault rifles are fully automatic weapons. 

 

Moving on. 

 

 

One common denominator behind these and other high-casualty mass shootings in recent years is the use of assault style rifles, capable of firing many rounds of ammunition in a relatively short period of time, with high accuracy. And their use in these types of shooting is becoming more common: There have been eight high-profile public mass shootings since July of last year, according to a database compiled by Mother Jones magazine. Assault-style rifles were used in seven of those.

Define high-casualty mass shootings. 

As I already stated ITT: As per the ATF definition, assault rifles are fully automatic weapons. 

All semi-automatic weapons shoot as fast as your finger can pull. This goes back to 1885. A true assault rifle (again, by the ATF definition) was not used in any of these shooting, require a super special permit, a tax stamp, extensive background checks, and a valid (valid defined by the ATF agent) reason. They can deny these for any reason. 

Accuracy is more reliant on the person holding a gun. If someone who has never shot a gun tried to shoot a target, they would probably miss. Hell, I see a ton of guys regularly visiting the range and still only hitting the target 60% of the time. 

The internet is more commonly being used to recruit terrorists. Technology evolves. 

Define high-profile mass shootings because the site doesn't.

As I already stated ITT: As per the ATF definition, assault rifles are fully automatic weapons. 

Define high-profile mass shootings because the site doesn't. 

 

Moving on. 

 

In the past 10 years, assault-style rifles have been used in 14 public mass shootings. Half of those shootings have occurred since last June.

Assault-style weapons have long been a flashpoint in the American gun debate. They were outlawed in 1994. But that ban expired in 2004 and Congress opted to not renew it. Gun rights proponents point out that rifles, of any type, are rarely used to kill people in the U.S. Because of that, researchers have generally found that the assault weapons ban had little impact on U.S. homicide rates while it was in effect.

On the other hand, compared to other firearms, assault-style rifles make it fairly easy to kill or injure many people in within a short period of time. So perpetrators wishing to inflict indiscriminate harm on a large crowd of people often turn to them. Of the 10 mass shooting incidents with the highest number of casualties — killed AND wounded — in the U.S., seven involved the use of an assault-style rifle, according to Mother Jones's database.

As I already stated ITT: As per the ATF definition, assault rifles are fully automatic weapons. 

Define high-profile mass shootings because the site doesn't. 

As I already stated ITT: As per the ATF definition, assault rifles are fully automatic weapons. 

Nope. The law restricted:

 

Semi-automatic rifles able to accept detachable magazines and two or more of the following:

-Folding or telescoping stock

-Pistol grip

-Bayonet mount

-Flash suppressor, or threaded barrel designed to accommodate one

-Grenade launcher mount

 

Semi-automatic pistols with detachable magazines and two or more of the following:

-Magazine that attaches outside the pistol grip

-Threaded barrel to attach barrel extender, flash suppressor, handgrip, or suppressor

-Barrel shroud safety feature that prevents burns to the operator

-Unloaded weight of 50 oz (1.4 kg) or more

-A semi-automatic version of a fully automatic firearm.

 

Semi-automatic shotguns with two or more of the following:

-Folding or telescoping stock

-Pistol grip

-Detachable magazine.

 

Detachable magazines are pretty much standard on rifles and pistols (except revolvers). 

Folding or telescoping stocks, and pistol grips just make the gun more comfortable to hold. Keeping in mind that the police at all levels (Federal, State, or Local) are all technically civilians, so this law applies to them. Some exterminators in rural areas have guns to deal with larger problems. 

Flash suppressors, and barrel shroud safety features are supposed to make the gun more safe for the operator. (Flash suppressors reduce the muzzle flash so the gun doesn't blind you.)

Bayonet mounts and grenade launcher mounts are just that, mounts. You can tape a knife to your gun to get around this law if you wanted to shoot up a place with a bayonet. Grenade launchers are NFA restricted items. They require a super special permit, a tax stamp, extensive background checks, and a valid (valid defined by the ATF agent) reason. They can deny these for any reason. In addition, you must do this for any grenade. If you get denied for one, the ATF will take all of these (including actual assault rifles (ATF definition)).

To convert a semi auto weapon to a fully auto weapon, you need to be an experienced machinist, gunsmith, and buy the right parts (which are also banned). 

tl;dr (this paragraph and list) - The AWB banned features on guns to make them safer and useless parts.  

 

Moving on. 

The Aurora shooter killed more people with his shotgun than his rifle. 

Anyone who wants to kill or injure as many people as they can should just use a bomb. See the Oklahoma City bombing, or the Happy Land murder. Both of those had more killed than the recent event in Orlando. There are more bombings that could fall into that category. 

As I already stated ITT: As per the ATF definition, assault rifles are fully automatic weapons. 

 

 

Terrorist groups have taken note of the widespread availability of assault rifles and other guns in the U.S. In 2011, al-Qaeda encouraged its followers to take advantage of lax guns laws, purchase assault-style weapons and use them to shoot people.

"America is absolutely awash with easily obtainable firearms," American-born al-Qaeda spokesman Adam Gadahn said in a video. "You can go down to a gun show at the local convention center and come away with a fully automatic assault rifle, without a background check, and most likely without having to show an identification card. So what are you waiting for?"

Gadahn was incorrect on one point — fully automatic weapons, which shoot continuously when you hold down the trigger, have been banned since 1986. But he was correct on other the other points: Most states don't require background checks for firearms purchased via private sales at gun shows. Most states don't require showing ID to purchase a firearm from a private seller.

Indeed, federal law allows people on terror watch lists to purchase guns, and thousands of them have done so.

The ease of purchasing guns in the U.S., even powerful ones designed to kill many people in a short period of time, is underscored by a crucial fact in Mother Jones's database: Of the 79 mass shootings since 1982 that Mother Jones was able to determine purchasing information for, 63 were committed with guns purchased legally.

As I already stated ITT: As per the ATF definition, assault rifles are fully automatic weapons. 

As I already stated ITT: As per the ATF definition, assault rifles are fully automatic weapons. 

So bombing people is okay? Running over people? You can buy a Soviet surplus tank and drive it down the street as long as the armor and guns are deactivated/destroyed by ATF regulation. BTRs are designed to go onto rough terrain, so I doubt it would have a hard time running over bodies. 

 

Here's an interesting piece about the terrorist watch list from of all places the Huffington Post:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/25/terrorist-watch-list_n_5617599.html

Critics say the system is bloated and imprecise, needlessly sweeping up thousands of harmless people while simultaneously failing to catch legitimate threats, like Boston Marathon bomber Tamerlan Tsarnaev. Meanwhile, the federal government even put an 18-month girl on the list:

https://www.rt.com/usa/list-tsa-jetblue-riyannas-950/

And Senator Ted Kennedy was on the list, obviously in error, because someone else was using the alias “T. Kennedy.†It took him three weeks to get off the list.

Meanwhile, the ACLU is opposed to the list and has filed suit for due process provisions:

https://www.aclu.org/cases/latif-et-al-v-holder-et-al-aclu-challenge-government-no-fly-list

https://www.aclu.org/blog/speak-freely/until-no-fly-list-fixed-it-shouldnt-be-used-restrict-peoples-freedoms

The government can restrict your travel, for example to the confines of a 6'x9' jail cell, but only with due process. The no-fly list had no due process. Therefore, it was unconstitutional. This was a compelling argument when the ACLU made it in 2010, and so the government put in a redress process for the people on the list. The ACLU argues it is still inadequate, and the lawsuit goes on. Read the link above for details.

tl;dr (this paragraph) - The terror-watch list is unconstitutional, ineffective, and even hated by anti-gun media outlets. 

 

As posted in another thread, there was systematic political abuse of psychiatry in the Soviet Union, based on the interpretation of political opposition or dissent as a psychiatric problem. It was called “psychopathological mechanisms†of dissent. During the leadership of General Secretary Leonid Brezhnev, psychiatry was used to disable and remove from society political opponents (“dissidentsâ€) who openly expressed beliefs that contradicted the official dogma. The term “philosophical intoxication,†for instance, was widely applied to the mental disorders diagnosed when people disagreed with the country’s Communist leaders and, by referring to the writings of the Founding Fathers of Marxism-Leninism - Karl Marx, Friedrich Engels, and Vladimir Lenin - made them the target of criticism. Article 58-10 of the Stalin-era Criminal Code, “Anti-Soviet agitation,†was to a considerable degree preserved in the new 1958 RSFSR Criminal Code as Article 70 “Anti-Soviet agitation and propaganda.†In 1967 a weaker law, Article 190-1 “Dissemination of fabrications known to be false, which defame the Soviet political and social system,†was added to the RSFSR Criminal Code. These laws were frequently applied in conjunction with the system of diagnosis for mental illness, developed by academician Andrei Snezhnevsky. Together they established a framework within which non-standard beliefs could easily be defined as a criminal offence and the basis, subsequently, for a psychiatric diagnosis. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_abuse_of_psychiatry_in_the_Soviet_Union

"B-but Wikipedia isn't a source!!1!!!!!"

Almost half of that article is full of sources including books and US Congress reports. 

tl;dr (this paragraph) - Mental health checks can be (and have been) abused.

 

Did you know that, according to the FBI, more people are killed each year in the U.S. with hammers and clubs than with rifles? In 2011, there were 323 murders committed with a rifle but 496 murders committed with hammers and clubs. These machines "designed to kill" were also the defense weapon of choice for Los Angeles Korean-American shopkeepers, who successfully warded off looting and burning of their shops using AR-15s and AK-47s (as well as other guns) during the 1992 Rodney King riots, when the police were nowhere to be found. Their businesses stood while all the others around them were burned to the ground.

 

Well, you don't find sources for guns bought illegally. That's what makes them illegal.

 

Articles are fun. 

[Morgan]

 

IT IS DESIGNED FOR THE MILITARY NOT CIVILIANS 

 

as·sault ri·fle

noun

 

1. a rapid-fire, magazine-fed automatic rifle designed for infantry use.

 

Assault rifle is a very misleading term. You have automatic and semi-automatic rifles. Full auto rifles fire round after round once the trigger is pulled and continues shooting until the trigger is no longer being pulled. To my knowledge you cannot purchase fully automatic weapons. Semi automatic weapons project one round each time the trigger is pulled. These weapons are legal, and are not the same kinds of weapons that the military uses. The military uses fully automatic weapons. 

[WISD0MTREE]

Assault rifle is a very misleading term. You have automatic and semi-automatic rifles. Full auto rifles fire round after round once the trigger is pulled and continues shooting until the trigger is no longer being pulled. To my knowledge you cannot purchase fully automatic weapons. Semi automatic weapons project one round each time the trigger is pulled. These weapons are legal, and are not the same kinds of weapons that the military uses. The military uses fully automatic weapons. 

You can buy fully-automatic weapons made before May 1986, but those are usually tens of thousands of dollars. (I saw one on Gunbroker for $35,000). Those aren't banned because they needed more support in Congress to pass the law. 

 

You have to get a permit for modern ones, though. The permit also includes silencers, destructive devices (grenades), all other weapons (AOW: cane guns, pen guns, etc.), short-barreled rifles (SBR), short-barreled shotguns (SBS). (Side note on the SBSs - If the company makes the gun a SBS then it is an AOW. If you make the gun a SBS then it is an SBS. It is generally easier to get an AOW approved than an SBS approved.) States can ban certain items, though. Here is a list about it. It's Wikipedia, so it is likely wrong. 

 

Just off of memory here, you have to: 

Be 21

Ask the local police/sheriff if there are any city/county/state laws restricting NFA items and get them to sign your form

Get passport pictures taken and attach to the form

Fill out the form (Including a part where it asks your reason why you want the gun. This is the most common reason people get denied. "Shall not be infringed" will be an immediate denial.)

Take the form to your city police/sheriff and have them fingerprint you and have them complete their part of the form

Send the forms, fingerprints, and a $200 money order (luxury tax) made out to the BATFE to an ATF place 

Send some kind of form that proves you are a US citizen to the US Treasury (They provide it)

They do a nationwide background check

You will get the form back in about half a year and can buy the gun/gun attachment (with another background check at the time of purchase)

Now you have the automatic weapon/AOW/SBR/SBS/suppressor. You are likely stuck with it forever because nobody wants to go through all of this to buy it from you. And you have to notify the ATF if you are taking it out of state. 

 

I could be wrong on some of the above, but it should be pretty accurate. And as posted in another thread (not replying to you directly, Morgan, just those who will say it is too easy to get one), since 1934, only one legally owned machine gun has ever been used in crime, and that was a murder committed by a law enforcement officer. On September 15th, 1988, a 13-year veteran  of the Dayton, OH police department, Patrolman Roger Waller, then 32, used his fully automatic MAC-11 .380 cal. submachine gun to kill a police informant, 52-year-old Lawrence Hileman. Patrolman Waller pleaded guilty in 1990, and he and an accomplice were sentenced to 18 years in prison. 

 

I wanted to get one at some point, but they are too expensive. I'm not quite ready to max out my credit card.

[Morgan]

You can buy fully-automatic weapons made before May 1986, but those are usually tens of thousands of dollars. (I saw one on Gunbroker for $35,000). Those aren't banned because they needed more support in Congress to pass the law. 

 

You have to get a permit for modern ones, though. The permit also includes silencers, destructive devices (grenades), all other weapons (AOW: cane guns, pen guns, etc.), short-barreled rifles (SBR), short-barreled shotguns (SBS). (Side note on the SBSs - If the company makes the gun a SBS then it is an AOW. If you make the gun a SBS then it is an SBS. It is generally easier to get an AOW approved than an SBS approved.) States can ban certain items, though. Here is a list about it. It's Wikipedia, so it is likely wrong. 

 

Just off of memory here, you have to: 

Be 21

Ask the local police/sheriff if there are any city/county/state laws restricting NFA items and get them to sign your form

Get passport pictures taken and attach to the form

Fill out the form (Including a part where it asks your reason why you want the gun. This is the most common reason people get denied. "Shall not be infringed" will be an immediate denial.)

Take the form to your city police/sheriff and have them fingerprint you and have them complete their part of the form

Send the forms, fingerprints, and a $200 money order (luxury tax) made out to the BATFE to an ATF place 

Send some kind of form that proves you are a US citizen to the US Treasury (They provide it)

They do a nationwide background check

You will get the form back in about half a year and can buy the gun/gun attachment (with another background check at the time of purchase)

Now you have the automatic weapon/AOW/SBR/SBS/suppressor. You are likely stuck with it forever because nobody wants to go through all of this to buy it from you. And you have to notify the ATF if you are taking it out of state. 

 

I could be wrong on some of the above, but it should be pretty accurate. And as posted in another thread (not replying to you directly, Morgan, just those who will say it is too easy to get one), since 1934, only one legally owned machine gun has ever been used in crime, and that was a murder committed by a law enforcement officer. On September 15th, 1988, a 13-year veteran  of the Dayton, OH police department, Patrolman Roger Waller, then 32, used his fully automatic MAC-11 .380 cal. submachine gun to kill a police informant, 52-year-old Lawrence Hileman. Patrolman Waller pleaded guilty in 1990, and he and an accomplice were sentenced to 18 years in prison. 

 

I wanted to get one at some point, but they are too expensive. I'm not quite ready to max out my credit card.

Too expensive for someone who wishes to do harm to get their hands on, that's for sure. That's why the weapon of choice for violent crimes are usually hand guns. Annually there are about 400 deaths due to semi-automatic long rifles compared to over 10,000 hand gun deaths.