Fascism

[Nationalist]

Fascism is needed. Democratic Liberalism and Left Wing governments have been proven to be corrupt.

 

The time is here, people of the nation need to rise up and throw out the foreigners living in it, throw down the democracy that is destroying us and crush the weaklings that exist in our society!

 

Heil!

[Sabcat]

You're 14, your dad's a drunk and he beats the shit out of you on a weekly basis.

[Thalmor]

OP, you're really not leaving us anything to debate about here.

[Nationalist]

OP, you're really not leaving us anything to debate about here.

The merits of Fascism and Nationalism are up for discussion in this thread. 

[Nationalist]

You're 14, your dad's a drunk and he beats the shit out of you on a weekly basis.

Nice fake OOC attack.

[James Hequ]

 because the fascist states were never corrupt

 

also how are democracies the most corrupt nations http://www.worldaudit.org/democracy.htm

Edited March 31, 2016 by Hequ

[Sabcat]

The merits of Fascism and Nationalism are up for discussion in this thread. 

 

Maybe if you described some of these merits, you know constructed some kind of argument then there'd be something to discuss.

[Nationalist]

Maybe if you described some of these merits, you know constructed some kind of argument then there'd be something to discuss.

1. Strength of the nation as everybody works towards a common goal

2. The keeping of race and culture as people are kept in their own types. 

3. Lack of the problems associated with democratic governments. As they are replaced by a strong leader.

4. National pride in nation.

[Ikhan]

Great, we have a new Captain Vietnam...

[James Hequ]

1. Strength of the nation as everybody works towards a common goal

2. The keeping of race and culture as people are kept in their own types. 

3. Lack of the problems associated with democratic governments. As they are replaced by a strong leader.

4. National pride in nation.

So what happens if they don't want to "work towards the common goal" are they are forced to work for something they disagree with

why is that a good thing

that can be against the common man

patriotism can be achieved in a democracy

[Andrezj Kolarov]

1. Strength of the nation as everybody works towards a common goal

If private property exists, then the only thing "everyone" is working towards is filling the bank accounts of the bourgeoisie.

 

Unless property is owned by the State, that is the people and Nation as a whole, then obviously the output of that property will go to whoever owns it. The "common goal" of fascism is the same as the common goal of any capitalist system, to enrich the ruling class by stripping the workers of the products of their labor.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Andrezj Kolarov

[James Hequ]

If private property exists, then the only thing "everyone" is working towards is filling the bank accounts of the bourgeoisie.

 

Unless property is owned by the State, that is the people and Nation as a whole, then obviously the output of that property will go to whoever owns it. The "common goal" of fascism is the same as the common goal of any capitalist system, to enrich the ruling class by stripping the workers of the products of their labor.

you act just like them you idiot, radicals act like radicals

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory

[Andrezj Kolarov]

you act just like them you idiot, radicals act like radicals

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory

Please name the companies that were nationalized/expropriated by the Nazi's or Fascist Italy. Defending private property and bourgeois culture was the entire raison d'etre of fascism.

[James Hequ]

Please name the companies that were nationalized/expropriated by the Nazi's or Fascist Italy. Defending private property and bourgeois culture was the entire raison d'etre of fascism.

you didn't read the article did you

[Moreau]

Fascism is needed. Democratic Liberalism and Left Wing governments have been proven to be corrupt.

 

The time is here, people of the nation need to rise up and throw out the foreigners living in it, throw down the democracy that is destroying us and crush the weaklings that exist in our society!

 

Heil!

 

Captain Vietnam is back folks. 

[Abu Haddad]

how about we crown you both commie and mussolini of the year

[Sabcat]

you didn't read the article did you

 

The problem with that position is it only works if you're viewing politics from a specific perspective - the centre of the horseshoe - outside of that narrow perspective the differences between the left and the right become huge. In that article they give examples of the US religious right and Russian Communists and say if the leaders could avoid talking about economics they'd find common ground. They might just as well say "if a fish and a dog could avoid talking about water, they'd find common ground".

 

It's also  ballsed up theory because it relies on there being some kind of left/right continuum to begin with, there isn't, it's just a linguistic shorthand. It's a lot of shit.

[Andrezj Kolarov]

you didn't read the article did you

You were claiming that National Socialists/Fascists and Communists are the same, and I was pointing that this isn't true as one sided absolutely supported private property and the other did not.

 

Furthermore, Communists are collectivists; we believe in history and present is driven by material forces and economic classes, Fascists are individualists who believe history and present is not driven by material forces but by "Great men" such as historical leaders, while the effect of changing economic systems is unimportant. Furthermore, Fascists are spiritualistic and believe extraordinary, even miraculous things can occur simply by the power of belief and will of "great individuals", while Communists are atheistic believe in nothing but what they can see, and believe society is driven by technological, scientific and industrial change. This is the reason the USSR was governed by committees, bureaus and mass organizations who functioned through legalistic methods, while Nazi Germany was governed by "Great Leader" individuals who possessed power not through laws but through personality/personal power.

 

I could could go on and on and on. Communism and Fascism are utterly alien to each other.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Andrezj Kolarov

[James Hequ]

You were claiming that National Socialists/Fascists and Communists are the same, and I was pointing that this isn't true as one sided absolutely supported private property and the other did not.

 

Furthermore, Communists are collectivists; we believe in history and present is driven by material forces and economic classes, Fascists are individualists who believe history and present is not driven by material forces but by "Great men" such as historical leaders, while the effect of changing economic systems is unimportant. Furthermore, Fascists are spiritualistic and believe extraordinary, even miraculous things can occur simply by the power of belief and will of "great individuals", while Communists are atheistic believe in nothing but what they can see, and believe society is driven by technological, scientific and industrial change. This is the reason the USSR was governed by committees, bureaus and mass organizations who functioned through legalistic methods, while Nazi Germany was governed by "Great Leader" individuals who possessed power not through laws but through personality/personal power.

 

I could could go on and on and on. Communism and Fascism are utterly alien to each other.

no i am claiming there action are the same.

 

so stalin and lenin were not supposed to be viewed as great men, you can talk about what you believe in theory but we judge the actions taken place in the society. lets compare stalin and hitler

 

[Andrezj Kolarov]

That chart above probably refers to most countries that have ever existed full stop, any country that can get away with it will destroy it's opponents and expand their borders with force, this is not the defining characteristic of any form of government. Also nationalism is not incompatible with Marxism-Leninism and socialism, in fact Stalin himself said that the purpose of industrialization was to make Russia independent, because if Russia was not self-sufficient in all the products necessary for a modern industrial economy it would need to import them from capitalist powers, thus diminishing it's independence.

 

Let us pass now to the results of the fulfilment of the five-year plan.

What are the results of the five-year plan in four years in the sphere of industry?

Have we achieved victories in this sphere?

Yes, we have. And not only that, but we have accomplished more than we ourselves expected, more than the ardent minds in our Party could have expected. That is not denied now even by our enemies, and certainly our friends cannot deny it.

We did not have an iron and steel industry, the basis for the industrialisation of the country. Now we have one.

We did not have a tractor industry. Now we have one.

We did not have an automobile industry. Now we have one.

We did not have a machine-tool industry. Now we have one.

We did not have a big and modern chemical industry. Now we have one.

We did not have a real and big industry for the production of modern agricultural machinery. Now we have one.

We did not have an aircraft industry. Now we have one.

In output of electric power we were last on the list. Now we rank among the first.

In output of oil products and coal we were last on the list. Now we rank among the first.

We had only one coal and metallurgical base — in the Ukraine — and it was with difficulty that we made do with that. We have not only succeeded in improving this base, but have created a new coal and metallurgical base — in the East — which is the pride of our country.

We had only one centre of the textile industry — in the North of our country. As a result of our efforts we shall have in the very near future two new centres of the textile industry — in Central Asia and Western Siberia.

And we have not only created these new great industries, but have created them on a scale and in dimensions that eclipse the scale and dimensions of European industry.

And as a result of all this the capitalist elements have been completely and irrevocably ousted from industry, and socialist industry has become the sole form of industry in the U.S.S.R.

 

https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1933/01/07.htm

Edited March 31, 2016 by Andrezj Kolarov

[Rozalia]

Fascism like all ideologies has positives, the common sense ideal of Nationalism for one. However the norm for fascist states is to have very illiberal stances which doesn't sit right with me, don't mind 'em if they're for Nationalistic reasons but restricting women, gays, and so on is bad juju for me. 

[James Hequ]

That chart above probably refers to most countries that have ever existed full stop, any country that can get away with it will destroy it's opponents and expand their borders with force, this is not the defining characteristic of any form of government. Also nationalism is not incompatible with Marxism-Leninism and socialism, in fact Stalin himself said that the purpose of industrialization was to make Russia independent, because if Russia was not self-sufficient in all the products necessary for a modern industrial economy it would need to import them from capitalist powers, thus diminishing it's independence.

 

https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1933/01/07.htm

my god, I am comparing their actions, and it seems to me that they acted te same. What does the chart say about industrialization 

[James Hequ]

Fascism like all ideologies has positives, the common sense ideal of Nationalism for one. However the norm for fascist states is to have very illiberal stances which doesn't sit right with me, don't mind 'em if they're for Nationalistic reasons but restricting women, gays, and so on is bad juju for me. 

tough I disagree on the nationalism part you do make a good point 

[SoS]

1. Strength of the nation as everybody works towards a common goal

2. The keeping of race and culture as people are kept in their own types.

3. Lack of the problems associated with democratic governments. As they are replaced by a strong leader.

4. National pride in nation.

1. Why not have your own goals?

2. Why not keep your culture in your family?

3.why not submit yourself to a cult leader to do with you as he pleases?

4.why not have some pride in yourself?

 

1.you blame others for your inadequacies.

2.you blame others for your inadequacies.

3.you blame others for your inadequacies.

4.you blame others for your inadequacies.

 

I can't get out of the trailer park...!@#$ing jews control everything!

Edited April 1, 2016 by SoS

[Hereno]

hey what's up tulip boy? xmfd

 

You were claiming that National Socialists/Fascists and Communists are the same, and I was pointing that this isn't true as one sided absolutely supported private property and the other did not.

 

Furthermore, Communists are collectivists; we believe in history and present is driven by material forces and economic classes, Fascists are individualists who believe history and present is not driven by material forces but by "Great men" such as historical leaders, while the effect of changing economic systems is unimportant. Furthermore, Fascists are spiritualistic and believe extraordinary, even miraculous things can occur simply by the power of belief and will of "great individuals", while Communists are atheistic believe in nothing but what they can see, and believe society is driven by technological, scientific and industrial change. This is the reason the USSR was governed by committees, bureaus and mass organizations who functioned through legalistic methods, while Nazi Germany was governed by "Great Leader" individuals who possessed power not through laws but through personality/personal power.

 

I could could go on and on and on. Communism and Fascism are utterly alien to each other.

i agree with your conclusion, but this is backwards because you're only halfway there

 

communism is the idea that it is in our individual interests as members of the working class to act collectively to secure our freedom. basically, the idea that collectivism is a good idea because it works for all of the individuals.

 

fascism is the idea that for the collective, we must promote "great individuals" like you mentioned and give them authority. or, the opposite of the above: the idea that in the name of the collective, individualism must be promoted.

 

no i am claiming there action are the same.

 

so stalin and lenin were not supposed to be viewed as great men, you can talk about what you believe in theory but we judge the actions taken place in the society. lets compare stalin and hitler

first and foremost, holy shit, above top secret is still around. a bunch of nutters on that forum but there are some good folks.

 

i'm glad you made this post, though, because as much as i often defend the actions of stalin, the left really needs to get their shit in order and actually address the very real reality that a lot of the actions of people who are ostensibly communist to look pretty much exactly like what the capitalists and fascists did.

 

the differences are as follows:

 

1. the ussr never claimed to be a communist situation until it was under stalin, and even then, as time grew on, he kept saying that communism was further and further off in the future, when he was being honest. in truth, they all knew that they were running a capitalist state as communists, and they knew that with the defeat of the revolution in germany there was pretty much no way for one ass-backwards barely european country to beat all of the capitalists by itself. socialism in one state was ideologically justified material reality that, in short, the revolution had failed and they were gonna just do the best they can. in practice, the ussr gave workers a lot of rights, including the right to a job, the right to housing, women the ability to participate equally with men, decriminalized homosexuality, and other things that are still unheard of in america, all while guaranteeing healthcare, raising the quality of life above that of the united states, and standing toe to toe with them post-WWII after losing millions of people, having a ton of industry absolutely obliterated by actually fighting within their own nation, and having far less economic power than the united states did - all from a backwater barely european country with less than 10% of its population within what we could consider the working class (most people in russia were peasant farmers in the early 1900s)

 

2. communism has to be global, just like capitalism, in order to operate effectively. the fact that the ussr was a capitalist state pays testament to this: in a global economy, you can't just have half of it completely in rejection of the other half. so yeah, in order to have communism everywhere, we're going to have to actually destroy all of the capitalist governments, just like the US constantly goes and destroys anything even remotely socialist by pretty much any means necessary. if a slave murders his master, this violence is different from the violence a master uses to make someone a slave, keep them a slave, or punish them as a slave. you can't think in moral heuristics: you have to examine the actual situation for its own merits.

 

3. stalin used nationalism as a tool, point blank, because as i said before, most of russia really didn't give too much of a shit about communism. the bolsheviks formed a dictatorship after having abolished the constituent assembly which stood against them, and while this was done ostensibly to support communism, which is a good goal, in practice what they did was try to force freedom on people who didn't even really understand how that was freedom. i can think of other nations which have tried to use force to "bring freedom" to other nations and it works out about the same way. in short, the workers must free themselves. if you can be led into communism you can be led right out of it, and that's exactly what happened. despite the overwhelming majority of the ussr not supporting regime change in the referendum held in the last few years of the soviet government, the people who had power sold government assets to themselves for pennies on the dollar and took over as being capitalist in name and nobody did shit about it, which was bound to happen, because again, the revolution had died a long time before that, and rights you do not fight for and aren't willing to fight for are going to be eroded. even the founders of america would have told you that.